Forums at The Military Horse

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:51 pm**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Couvi
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I found this GebK15 rotting away at the US Naval Acadamy!!!

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Note the enormous size of the tube in relation the carriage. This was to offset the recoil. The US Pack 75 had a lead weight cast over the upper recoil mechanism to absorb some of the recoil.

Couvi

"Cavalier sans Cheval"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was wondering about the huge tube, and didn't know about the US pack 75 having a lead weight. While it makes sense, what a load for the mule it must have been!

Pat

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:09 pm**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Pat Holscher
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Couvi
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I found this GebK15 rotting away at the US Naval Acadamy!!!

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Note the enormous size of the tube in relation the carriage. This was to offset the recoil. The US Pack 75 had a lead weight cast over the upper recoil mechanism to absorb some of the recoil.

Couvi

"Cavalier sans Cheval"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was wondering about the huge tube, and didn't know about the US pack 75 having a lead weight. While it makes sense, what a load for the mule it must have been!

Pat
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That great curve on the top on the top recoil mechanism of the Pack 75 is cast lead. It is not an attempt at making the thing look sleek or artful as has been suggested.

Couvi

"Cavalier sans Cheval"

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:47 pm**

How many Mountain infantry units were there in WWII?

I know the Germans and Italians fielded them, but about all I know about that is that the German ones served in Norway and the Eastern front. I don't know anything else about them. At least Alpini one served on the Easter front as well.

The US 10th Mountain Division served principally in Italy, although at least a few elements of it served in the Aleutians early on.

This certainly isn't the full story, but what else does anyone know.

And how many of these units had horse and mule use other than the 10th Mountain Division and the German mountain units? The Alpini had mules, but did they have any saddle mounts?

Pat

Posted: **Sun Mar 26, 2006 8:59 pm**

Somewhat related to this thread, this archived thread has some interesting photos of mounted German mountain troops.

topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=3013

Pat

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:20 am**

Kiser,

Does the German Army still have pack units? As I recall, there were still some in service in the 1970's.

Couvi

"Cavalier sans Cheval"

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2006 11:23 am**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Couvi
 Kiser,

Does the German Army still have pack units? As I recall, there were still some in service in the 1970's.

Couvi

"Cavalier sans Cheval"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Grüß Di' Couvi,

I believe they do...as do the Austrians, Italians and Swiss. The German Bundeswehr Gebirgsjägers used their pack animals, Haflinger horses and Muli (mules), during the troubles in the former Yugoslavia, and I believe that they are being used currently in Afganistan.

I was at the 75th Anniversary of the 1. Gebirgsjäger Division in Mittenwald, Germany in 1990. I got to see the Muli, packsaddles and gear in person. Most of the packsaddles, harnesses, and wicker panniers were the same as the World War II gear wiht some minor changes....if it ain't broke don't fix it!!! Here are a few photos that I took:

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:31 pm**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also, is Skoda Checkoslovakian?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The 2nd Cavalry used Baron von Skoda's castle in Zinkovy as a headquarters for a short time just after the end of WW II in Europe.

Don't attract gunfire. It irritates the people around you.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:38 pm**

Kiser,<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Couvi
 Kiser,

Does the German Army still have pack units? As I recall, there were still some in service in the 1970's.

Couvi

"Cavalier sans Cheval"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Grüß Di' Couvi,

I believe they do...as do the Austrians, Italians and Swiss. The German Bundeswehr Gebirgsjägers used their pack animals, Haflinger horses and Muli (mules), during the troubles in the former Yugoslavia, and I believe that they are being used currently in Afganistan.

I was at the 75th Anniversary of the 1. Gebirgsjäger Division in Mittenwald, Germany in 1990. I got to see the Muli, packsaddles and gear in person. Most of the packsaddles, harnesses, and wicker panniers were the same as the World War II gear wiht some minor changes....if it ain't broke don't fix it!!! Here are a few photos that I took:

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">The bits look like the US snaffle, Model of 1908, I believe. But, I suppose when you need a particular piece of equipment for a specific purpose the will all resemble each other. We have commented on various threads that the British Army pack saddle looks a great deal like the commercial Decker pack saddles so popular today.

Reference the wicker panniers; the German Artillery in WWI & WWII used specific wicker baskets to carry ammunition. It is very strong and quiet in handling. I am not surprised to see them still in use where weight is critical.

Couvi

"Cavalier sans Cheval"

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:15 pm**

Great pictures and an interesting discussion. I have a special affintity for the mulis because I have shared a good bit of beer with the gebergjagers over the years.

Bad Reichenhall is the current home to the headquarters of the last gebergjager brigade of the bundeswehr (down from a full division in the cold war). I have spent time in Bad Reichenall since I was a kid and was last there this past summer. My friends in the bundeswehr tell me that, although it is one of the few full trained and manned brigades in the germany army, the real reason the brigade still exists is that Bavaria would succeed from the republic if the government tried to totally deactivate the gebergesjagers. Bundeswehr units all recruit locally and so the members of the brigade are all born and raised in the alpes.

It is also the current home of Gebirgstragtierwesen 230. Essentially this translates to mountain animal transport unit. They have mostly mules but also have halflingers. There mission is general transportation support to mountain troops under conditions of terrain and weather which preclude wheel or air support. They also will use the halflingers for mounted reconnaissance.

When I was a kid hiking in the mountains around Bad Reichenhall it was a special thrill to run into a mule unit (in those days Bad Reichenhall was home to a mountain artillery battalion with mules) on a road march. You could usually hear them coming because German troops on a road march always sang the old army songs. You still see them occassionally on trucks on the road around Bad Reichenhall. They are distinctive because the mules are loaded into the back of a standard tarped German army 2 1/2 ton equivalant and the tales hang out the back over the tailgate.

Their website says the company is also used to support the German forest service in the Alpine national park which is just down the road from Reichenall on the Austrian border. The park is huge and has no paved access roads and does not permit any private motorized vehicles --you have to hike in and hike out.

See the website below:

http://www.stoka-bad-reichenhall.de/geb ... az/eaz.php

Thanks again for the great pics.

Lou D.

Posted: **Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:22 pm**

Neat photos!

I'd wondered if various Alpine nations might still use pack horses or mules. The Alpini do not. On the other armies, I see comments from time to time that they no longer do, but then you'll see photographic evidence to the contrary. The Austrian army has some photos of pack horses in use, so they must still be doing it. I've seen relatively recent ones of Swiss use as well.

Soldiering is hard work, to be sure. And soldiering with animals is extra hard. Still, there's something that looks almost carefree in the photos of peacetime mountain troops. It surely is not, but the appearance of it is unique.

Pat

Posted: **Tue Mar 28, 2006 12:06 pm**

Grüß Di' Lou,

Thanks for your insights and the link. When were you over in Germany? I was there from 1981-91. Spent the first 5 years in Frankfurt at HQ V Corps and the second 5 down in München with HQ AAFES-Europe. I use to live between München and Bad Reichenhall in a little town called Au, across the Autobahn from Bad Aibling. I miss having the Alps in my backyard! What a great time! Also, spent time with Bundeswehr and WWII veteran Gebirgsjägers...drinking beers and listening to all the stories.

Back to Mulis! Here is an interesting page on the Austrian Bundesheer website that talks about a pack animal competition with Austrian, German, and Swiss armies...some good photos there too:

http://www.bmlv.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=1051

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:34 pm**

gruss gott! (limited typeface and computer skills, tho am an army brat and ex-gi)

what an impressive collection, both material and pictoral. a lot of it clearly shows the landser's sense of humor and love of their animals. i bet the anecdotes regarding the muli are great-- i would love to read some (in english, my deutsch is at the old-gi level only)! anything published in english?

i bet the oldtimers are a hoot too. that brings to mind the oft heard stories of how deeply affected so many german soldiers were as their much more heavily horsed (and muled) units saw their equines suffer through the war-- gunfire, artillery, air bombardment, disease, starvation, and weather.

what were the sources and breeding of the muli used?

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:30 pm**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dimarcol
 Great pictures and an interesting discussion. I have a special affintity for the mulis because I have shared a good bit of beer with the gebergjagers over the years.

Bad Reichenhall is the current home to the headquarters of the last gebergjager brigade of the bundeswehr (down from a full division in the cold war). I have spent time in Bad Reichenall since I was a kid and was last there this past summer. My friends in the bundeswehr tell me that, although it is one of the few full trained and manned brigades in the germany army, the real reason the brigade still exists is that Bavaria would succeed from the republic if the government tried to totally deactivate the gebergesjagers. Bundeswehr units all recruit locally and so the members of the brigade are all born and raised in the alpes.

It is also the current home of Gebirgstragtierwesen 230. Essentially this translates to mountain animal transport unit. They have mostly mules but also have halflingers. There mission is general transportation support to mountain troops under conditions of terrain and weather which preclude wheel or air support. They also will use the halflingers for mounted reconnaissance.

When I was a kid hiking in the mountains around Bad Reichenhall it was a special thrill to run into a mule unit (in those days Bad Reichenhall was home to a mountain artillery battalion with mules) on a road march. You could usually hear them coming because German troops on a road march always sang the old army songs. You still see them occassionally on trucks on the road around Bad Reichenhall. They are distinctive because the mules are loaded into the back of a standard tarped German army 2 1/2 ton equivalant and the tales hang out the back over the tailgate.

Their website says the company is also used to support the German forest service in the Alpine national park which is just down the road from Reichenall on the Austrian border. The park is huge and has no paved access roads and does not permit any private motorized vehicles --you have to hike in and hike out.

See the website below:

http://www.stoka-bad-reichenhall.de/geb ... az/eaz.php

Thanks again for the great pics.

Lou D.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was hoping the photos on the site would enlarge, but they won't. There's a photo of two mounted German troops. I'm curious about the tack. Is it the old Armesattel still in use?

Pat

Posted: **Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:33 pm**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 Grüß Di' Lou,

Thanks for your insights and the link. When were you over in Germany? I was there from 1981-91. Spent the first 5 years in Frankfurt at HQ V Corps and the second 5 down in München with HQ AAFES-Europe. I use to live between München and Bad Reichenhall in a little town called Au, across the Autobahn from Bad Aibling. I miss having the Alps in my backyard! What a great time! Also, spent time with Bundeswehr and WWII veteran Gebirgsjägers...drinking beers and listening to all the stories.

Back to Mulis! Here is an interesting page on the Austrian Bundesheer website that talks about a pack animal competition with Austrian, German, and Swiss armies...some good photos there too:

http://www.bmlv.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=1051

Muli vor und Horrido!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are most of the troops depicted in those photos Austrian?

Pat

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:53 pm**

The troops is the green od uniforms on the left of the photo are austrian. The troops further down the line on the left are German. They are wearing german cammies with the traditional gebergsjager caps. You can clearly see the tragtier company 230 standard on the left of the photo with the traditional blue and white bavarian colors. I would be interested in the breed of the bays under pack in the photo. They could be Freibergers which which would mean that that is the swiss team facing the camera. Their cammies match the swiss pattern.

Good question Pat about the mounted saddles in that tiny photograph. My default reaction would be they are probably riding some modern German saddle --just because there are so many good ones and they would buy new of course...but... about 10 years ago I was in a tack store down the road from their kaserne and that store had a least 15 or 20 very very good condition armiesattles stacked in the corner going for about $100 apiece (I already had two so I wasn't interested and they didn't have any accessories just saddles). Something to investigate.

Some additional Austrian tragtier photos:

http://www.bmlv.at/download_archiv/phot ... php?id=150

http://www.bmlv.at/archiv/a2003/protect ... php?id=354

Lou D.

Posted: **Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:06 pm**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dimarcol
 The troops is the green od uniforms on the left of the photo are austrian. The troops further down the line on the left are German. They are wearing german cammies with the traditional gebergsjager caps. You can clearly see the tragtier company 230 standard on the left of the photo with the traditional blue and white bavarian colors. I would be interested in the breed of the bays under pack in the photo. They could be Freibergers which which would mean that that is the swiss team facing the camera. Their cammies match the swiss pattern.

Good question Pat about the mounted saddles in that tiny photograph. My default reaction would be they are probably riding some modern German saddle --just because there are so many good ones and they would buy new of course...but... about 10 years ago I was in a tack store down the road from their kaserne and that store had a least 15 or 20 very very good condition armiesattles stacked in the corner going for about $100 apiece (I already had two so I wasn't interested and they didn't have any accessories just saddles). Something to investigate.

Some additional Austrian tragtier photos:

http://www.bmlv.at/download_archiv/phot ... php?id=150

Lou D.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Odd to see photos of a current army still wearing a single color uniform.

Pat

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:09 am**

Grüß Di' alte Mulis,

Here are some more photos of the current Bundeswehr Gebirgsjägers both mounted on Haflingers and using Mulis.

Muli und Hafi vor!

Heeresbergführer Kiser

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:25 am**

I saw some Haflingers at the local fair last year. Cute, but solidly built. I wouldn't mind having either them or some nice Fjords.

And thanks for the photos!

Monique MacNaughton

Stories that begin with "Last seen in a bar" generally don't end well!

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:15 pm**

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Heeresbergführer
 Grüß Di' alte Mulis,

Here are some more photos of the current Bundeswehr Gebirgsjägers both mounted on Haflingers and using Mulis.

Muli und Hafi vor!

Heeresbergführer Kiser
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Great photos!

What year were those taken in?

Note that the riders are wearing their heavy soled mountain boots. Not ideal at all for a mounted man. Sort of surprising.

I guess this resolves my earlier saddle question. The Armeesattel is not in use here. Anyone recognize the particular saddle in use?

Pat

To add, thsee photos are so recent, that the German troops are carrying the new 5.56 assault rifle, not the G3. So these are really recent.

Yet another army, we see here, with ongoing riding mounts, let alone pack animals.

Also note the device that troops wear on their helmets to pick up opposing lasar signal shots in war games. The mounted men are participating in some sort of war game.

What great photos. Good example of BDR camouflage too.

Posted: **Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:19 pm**

And what is that odd tracked vehicle? It almost looks like a Bren gun carrier, which it obviously is not.

I'd hate to get caught in a modern battle in that armoed vehicle. I think I'd rather take my chances on the halfinger.

Note also the cart. It looks a lot like the carts in use in WWII.

Pat

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