Forums at The Military Horse

Dallas, thanks for your photos, and your analysis. Very interesting.

Pat

Interesting. I wonder who did the sculpture?

Monique MacNaughton

<i>Stories that begin with "Last seen in a bar" generally don't end well!</i>

Great statue and lovely setting.
Thank you Dallas.

Dušan

Thanks for sharing, Dallas.
I think a (much) smaller scale statue would be great in my leaving room. The style reminds me of a contemporary American sculptor whose name escapes me right now. He made something for the Gettysburg battlefield park. Very good researcher BTW.

Eric

Ron Tunison is the one I was thinking about, but from his website (http://www.historicalsculptures.com/ worth a view), he did not create that statue.

Would the mix of equipment here be typical of an Indian War's trooper?

Pat

It is totally correct for a 1870s trooper. The US Army was still being issued ACW surplus, including horse equipment. MacClellan saddles went through the various modifications but as an exemple 1859 saddle bags were still worn at the time of the 1876 LBH campaign. The 1863 bit was seen well into the 1880s, and I recall a picture of 7th Cav troopers at Wounded Knee in late 1890 - early 1891 showing one full flap pistol holster. One can add that the units in the West, and particularly the 9th and 10t Cav, were never on the priority list to received the latest patterns of equipment.

Originally posted by Coydog
Interesting. I wonder who did the sculpture?

Monique MacNaughton

<i>Stories that begin with "Last seen in a bar" generally don't end well!</i>

Eddie Dixon.

http://www.eddiedixonartist.com/index.htm

Pat

I think that the mixture of equipment and accoutrement that typified the cavalry trooper throughout the post CW period can probably be explained by thrift. In almost every approval of new accoutrements I have read some authority - the Secretary of War or General of the Army - has added the caveat that the new equipment should not be issued until the the present equipment had been used up, or words to that effect. I am sure that this led to many pieces of perfectly serviceable, if a little old fashioned, equipment being "used up" - and set aside for campaign use - whilst newer items were requisitioned and kept for garrison and parade use - to be "used up" in their turn at a later date. The similar practice of using older uniform on campaign is mentioned in reminiscences. I seem to remember reading that a certain Sgt. in the Seventh Cavalry was able to purchase an expensive rifle from the proceeds of buying uniforms from discharged troopers and selling them to serving soldiers for use on campaign.

With regard to Western or Negro troops being at the back of the queue for new issues during the post CW period, the quarterly returns of arms and accoutrements in use (up to March 1876 anyway) do not bear this contention out. The Tenth Cavalry, in Texas, for instance were the first regiment to be issued with the new Colt .45 revolver in First Quarter 1874. In research for my book I found no evidence of regionalism or racism in the way the Ordnance Department issued the items it was responsible for.

I have one small quibble about the Buffalo Soldier statue which in no way detracts from its overall excellence - and that is that I cannot see how the holster is being carried. It does not seem to be attached to the cartridge belt so is it carried on a separate belt - something that was tried but was very unpopular - or is tied on in some way? The top of the belt loop seems to be level with the bottom of the cartridge belt and unattached. Of course it may be that I cannot see the detail of attachment.

Dušan

Dusan: You are correct. There is no visible method of attachment for the revolver holster. You would think that with all of the research that the sculptor did, he would have corrected that problem. I looked through the Meadows book on U.S. Military Holsters to see if he had any comment on the use of the CW full flap holster with the woven cartridge belt. He does show one specimen on Page 86 which had a larger belt loop added probably to allow it to be carried on the Prairie Belt or woven cartridge belt. However the statue doesn't appear to have a similar type.
Dallas

Interesting related comment from an 1882 Ordnance officer's report:
http://www.militaryhorse.org/resources/ ... t/1882.asp
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> As an officer who has had, perhaps, exceptional opportunities to observe the practical workings of the equipments issued by the Ordnance Department, I have to report with reference to the three items, the cartridge belt, canteen, and carbine socket, that this anomalous state of affairs exists, viz., that when issued to the cavalry they either remain unused in their packing boxes or they are immediately changed to adapt them to the practical necessities of the service, and each commander is a law unto himself as to the particular manner in which the change should be made. The greater portion of the time of the company saddler is spent making these changes, and the material therefor is obtained from the superabundant supplies semi-annually issued to each company. Also, with reference to the cartridge belt, that it is not adapted for use with equally essential articles. If worn as issued, the saber and pistol must be left behind, and there is no provision for carrying revolver ammunition. It is curious to note the various devices resorted to by company commanders to enable their men to carry their entire outfit. In one instance which I recall the loops of the holsters were cut, and then laced so as to adapt them to the cartridge belt, but the lacing soon became worn, the holsters were loosened and swung in their places, and several pistols were lost.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">


Todd

Thanks Todd,
That officer is stating some of the problems that came about by the introduction of a cartridge belt( 1876 Prairie belt) into an otherwise well thought out accoutrement system (Pattern 1874 accoutrements) without considering how it would be used. The field expedients he mentions would continue into the later 1880's, even after the Mills belt was integrated into the accoutrement system in 1885, as there were still many older items of equipment in issue. Some semi official alterations like the Forsyth holster came into being as a result of this, whilst many local solutions to the problem were arrived at. It was with this in mind that I was interested to know how the holster was attached - perhaps it's tied on with invisible (to the viewer) strings?

Dušan

Cheyenne will have a Buffalo Soldier monument soon too.

http://www.trib.com/articles/2006/11/15 ... 075a67.txt

This article actually is on another monument which was just dedicated here in Casper. It depicts a sheepman with a sheep over his pommel during the big 1980 blizzard. The statute stronglly recalls a famous photo from around here, however, of a cowboy carrying a calf in a 19th Century blizzard.

There seems to be a big outbreak of monument building here. Not sure if that's the case elsewhere, but is sure is here. Every Wyoming town and city seems to be putting them up. There were only a couple of significant ones here when I was a kid, and they were all abstract. Now we have five large monumental bronzes. I suppose they were all built within the last 20 years.

This is the one they just actually dedicated, across from the courthouse:

http://www.natureartists.com/artists/ar ... orkID=8815

CSU has the first one. Pioneer park, across from the courthouse, has several bronze sheep. All monuments to the sheep industry, whcih is a shawdow of its former self. The courthouse also has an empty saddle bronze.

Pat

Cheyenne's memorial

Excellent figure - no problems with belt equipment on this one!

Really, there is no likelihood of the Buffalo soldiers being forgotten, as the army has decided to put such emphasis on them. Rather, the risk is that their real history is being sterilized and so their reality is fading into myth. It is certainly true that black troops coming from the most disadvantaged of all positions, recent former slavery, performed not only well, but admirably in many, possibly most cases. In some cases, individual soldiers were heroic, as witnessed not only by the written histories, but by the Medals of Honor. All this is in the public eye now, as it should be.

What is gradually being forgotten is the reality that any group of human beings, even if they are Buffalo Soldiers, will have a distribution among it of the good and the bad. There was no higher a count of saints and heroes among the Buffalo Soldiers than among the army's other units. There were plenty of goldbricks, scoundrels, and disorderly troops. This fact should make the exemplary behavior of the remarkable few stand out in even sharper relief. However, these days, we do not discuss the troop riots, the failures, and the disciplinary problems.

For a clear example of re-made "history,", the name Buffalo Soldier came from the Indians in reference to the curly hair of the troops. There is no evidence that it was anything but a values-neutral description. However, we are now told over and over that the Indians came up with the name because they thought the troops had "the courage of the buffalo." Now the record and the medals of honor show that many of the troops had great courage, indeed. But the courage of the buffalo? The silliness of it all is quite clear when you recall that for centuries, millennia in fact, the Indians had stampeded the buffalo off of cliffs in order to get meat. Later when they got horses, they rode them down with lances. IU ask you, where is the courage?

I had dinner Tuesday evening with the curator of the African American Civil War Museum in Washington (Hari Jones). The subject of Buffalo Soldiers came up. According to his research the first mention of "Buffalo Soldiers" was during the Civil War of soldiers from Buffalo, NY. Buffalo was a center of anti slavery activity. The term was not used again until after WWII when Black veterans referred to their patch to distinguish themselves from recent black recruits. He said the reference to being named after the animal is just another myth.

He also said that the 135th Colored Infantry (NC) partcipated in the Grand Review up PA Ave as part of Sherman's Army at the end of the war.There were also other colored troops paticipating as auxliaries to his army. It is therefore another myth that colored troops were banned from partcipaton.

Philip S wrote:I had dinner Tuesday evening with the curator of the African American Civil War Museum in Washington (Hari Jones). The subject of Buffalo Soldiers came up. According to his research the first mention of "Buffalo Soldiers" was during the Civil War of soldiers from Buffalo, NY. Buffalo was a center of anti slavery activity. The term was not used again until after WWII when Black veterans referred to their patch to distinguish themselves from recent black recruits. He said the reference to being named after the animal is just another myth.

He also said that the 135th Colored Infantry (NC) partcipated in the Grand Review up PA Ave as part of Sherman's Army at the end of the war.There were also other colored troops paticipating as auxliaries to his army. It is therefore another myth that colored troops were banned from partcipaton.

The 92nd Division, which was one of perhaps two black divisions during World War One, used a patch that featured a buffalo. It was my presumption that it did so as it was an all black division and I'd be at least a little surprised if that wasn't true, so I think the use of term may have been common prior to the Great War, although I haven't looked into it.

By the way, the 92nd is really interesting as it was made up of volunteer and National Guard units that had black enlisted men, but of no regular black troops. One regiment in the 92nd, the 366th, is highly unique as it had black officers and black enlisted men, making it very rare. What a person would suspect is that some of the black regular units would have been used in such a division, but they were not. Having just looked it up, the cavalry regiments served in the Philippines and along the Mexican border, both of which were of course active military provinces. Of the infantry regiments, one served in Hawaii and I'll have to look the other back up, but it wasn't sent to France. Sort of curious use of long established regular troops, but of course with the cavalry not too surprising. Perhaps not with the Hawaii posting either.

On the term referring to Buffalo, New York, that'd be interesting if true. The way places and people get named is often surprising. Buffalo, Wyoming, which is right on the edge of the Powder River Basin, was named after Buffalo, New York. Given its location and that its an old Wyoming town, you'd think that it would have been named after the animal, but it wasn't.

Older texts assert that the name "Buffalo Soldier" came from Indian observations on the texture of black's hair. The association with courage related to the animal is something I've only seen more recently, but buffaloes themselves aren't something that I've generally seen cited in sources as being regarded by Indians are courageous. We'd expect an association like that to be made to bears or some such animal, but could be in error. Plains Indians fairly commonly used animals for names, so however they viewed them didn't keep them from using them as names for people. "Bull" shows up relatively common in Plains Indian names, for example. While not related to Bison, of course, the name "Elk" shows up fairly often as well. I once worked on a matter where a woman had the last name "Pretty Elk", for example. It'd be interesting to know what contemporary sources indicate being used as a nickname, if there are any. The very well researched, but still a novel, Little Big Man has the Cheyenne using the term "Black White Men" for blacks in general, and while it is only a novel, it is an unusually well researched one in regards to Indians and their views.

I see where the other black division during World War One was the 93d Division. The patch for the 93d is a blue Adrian helmet on a field of black, which must indicate that the division served with the French army during the war.

Like the 92nd, the 93d was not made up of pre war Regular Army black units.