Forums at The Military Horse

Bob;
Interesting comments about Morris, whom I confess I hold in high regard. No offense taken though. I'll have to re- read him again but I think you'll find that the crest release is a tool he recommends for emergencies and beginners only. I would guess that it grew out of his abhorrence for anything that hurts the horse. Jumping out of hand is his ultimate goal for the student. Perhaps his methods have been taken too far that way by others. I know what you mean though about the faddish practice of draping ones self 3/4 of the way up the horse's neck. I doubt that this inflated element of style is to his liking as he is such a conservative stickler in every other way. As to his book 'The American Jumping Style' which Philip recommends, it is an excellent summary of Jumping in the 20th century. I think he is to be commended for being one of the few to make the effort to keep before his student's and reading public's eye the origins of the forward seat.
Sandy
Ps: welcome

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by selewis</i>
<br /> I confess I hold (Morris) in high regard. No offense taken though. I'll have to re- read him again but I think you'll find that the crest release is a tool he recommends for emergencies and beginners only. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I am new here so I will try to soft pedal my views on George Morris, but bottom line, I find it hard to advocate for the military seat and for the American Hunter/Jumper seat that Morris has promoted and still promotes. I know in words he recommends the crest release for emergencies and beginners, and that he has written in his column that “it is time to “move past” the crest release. However, if you take him at his word, a typical hunter/jumper show is an uninterrupted series of emergencies and beginners, if you know what I mean.

He is the single most influential voice in that part of the equestrian world, which is currently the largest “English” riding segment. I find it hard to let him have it both ways. When H/J seat was/is favorable, he’s the man, and when his seat falls under criticism, as it increasingly has due perhaps to the growth in eventing, the problems are due to all the minions he has essentially created, not him.

As a horse trainer I am prone to not hear words as much as look at what I see happening. A student of mine brought me a tape of a clinic he gave last month. I didn’t see the military seat.

I’m not down on the guy. I think he was well intentioned at the start, hoping to open up wider possibilities for more riders. I think it would do his legacy well to take more action and use fewer placating words. If his roots are the military seat, and I believe they are, he should return to his roots. He is still the main man in the H/J world, and people would listen if he took stronger positions. “Recommends” and “move past” aren’t going to get it done. I believe if he does not, equestrian history may treat him as a footnote.

And thanks for the list Phillip.

Respectfully,

Bob

Bob;
Though I gather that accusations have been been made from time to time, I think it fair to say that 'group think' is carefully guarded against here, so any polite discussion relating to military horsemanship is appreciated, whether everyone agrees, as is seldom the case, or not. So soft pedaling isn't necessary. While this is not an H/J forum, Morris, because of his particular discipline and close relationship with Gordon Wright would fall into an appropriate category, I would think. (If not, I'm sure that the gallery gods will correct me on this.) Recently Pat Holscher asked, 'What are the ongoing influences of the MMS on civilian riding?' and your comments would seem to bear directly on that question, so I, for one, welcome them. Is this the style that you seek to promote in your teaching? If so, how is the martial connection received by hoi polloi these days? Lately, I have been thinking, or at least hoping, that the time is ripe to re-emphasize this heritage.
Sandy

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by selewis</i>
<br /> Morris, because of his particular discipline and close relationship with Gordon Wright would fall into an appropriate category, I would think.... Is this the style that you seek to promote in your teaching? If so, how is the martial connection received by hoi polloi these days? Lately, I have been thinking, or at least hoping, that the time is ripe to re-emphasize this heritage.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I am aware of Morris’ connection with Gordon Wright and I guess this is what irks me a little. When Gordon Wright was active there were actually foxhunters competing in hunter show classes. Today very few show hunters could actually hunt. It would be dangerous to make them try.

The whole idea of horse shows was started by the military as a public relations concept with townspeople, to show what a military horse could do. Clearly in a show ring only a small fraction of their skills could be demonstarted, but it was enough to impress civilians.

After the mounted services were dismounted and the officers who rode well at the armories (where most of the shows were in the 40’s & 50’s) around the country died or gave up the sport, showing became a civilian enterprise. It got very commercial over time, and took on a life of its own. It went from a community of sportsmen (and women starting in the 20’s) to a business. George Morris rode the crest of that business wave, and in my opinion he never looked back, say to Gordon Wright.

In answer to “Is this the style that you seek to promote in your teaching?”, yes. I have been teaching the military seat for years. I have updated the language a little. For example PhilipS posted a pamphlet that contained, “Such a seat is dependent upon BALANCE, supplemented by SUPPLENESS and MUSCULAR CONTROL. I use BALANCE, TIMING and STRENGTH. I replaced suppleness with timing because timing is a more current athletic concept, and without suppleness you cannot have any timing. And I substituted strength for muscular comntrol for much the same reason and it is simpler.

New riders who want to take up polo find the military seat and the military seat teaching/learning process faster and more effective. Likewise, hunter/jumper types who want to start to fox hunt or do eventing end up coming to me because of the inherent imbalances in their h/j seat. They find they can ride more securely and jet the job done faster with the military seat. However, some just hate it.

The military seat is a more athletic seat, it is easy to make sports comparisons to a pro tennis player waiting for a serve or a line backer waiting to the hike. Some riders, particularly those with years of h/j training can’t make the change, I think because the military seat requires more athletic training and ability. To me the h/j seat is simply a series of short cuts around the athletic demands of the military seat. You can imagine that some people would not like to give up the short cuts. However, the people who do want the real thing say things to me like, “I wish I met you years ago”.

Three day eventing (called “The Military” from 1900 to around 1920) or horse trials, is a growing equestrian sport, as is polo, particularly among women. This growth has and I think will continue to fuel the return of the military seat. The problem I see is that unlike the h/j world, which is a huge marketing machine, there is no comparable “military seat” world to properly promote it. Instead I see many h/j instructors and trainers saying, “Oh I do that too” with regard to the military seat, and they haven’t a clue what they are talking about. All they know is clients want to ride cross country, and want “that seat” and they had better teach it or loose business, so they fake it.

That is not to say there are not many well qualified eventing trainers, but they tend to be clustered is a few locations around the country. It would be wise to set up a certification program for the military seat sometime soon before the fakers dilute its meaning into oblivion. For example, at Saumur there was a component of training called dressage sportif. There is currently a group of upscale girl’s finishing schools in the east that have pretty much hijacked the term dressage sportif. It would make you sick if you are a Saumur proponent or a Vladimir Littauer fan, who has written a good deal on dressage sportif, and you saw what they do under the name dressage sportif.

I have been teaching what I learned as a young person from a cavalry instructor. I have worked on a ranch, studied dressage, and made minor evolutions based on my experience. I feel my evolutions are within the true scope of the correct seat. Some evolutions are necessary because the real military seat riders rode every day. Hardly anyone can do that in our current culture. So there is a need for accommodation for weaker bodies, for example. I have taken a lot of c**p over the years for it. I once worked at a show barn and I regularly jumped horses 4’ employing bends int he approaches and landings. The other instructors couldn’t jump 3’ in a straight line and they constantly told me how wrong I was "in my form" (meaning I didn't look like a goose trying to have a bowel movement while flying). In the last few years I have begun to feel vindicated. Too bad I am 58 and planning to retire. But now I found this website and I see I am not alone. It feels good.

Bob

Bob:

Interesting posts. I agree fully about the influence and importance of the military in the development of horsemanship.

One small point, though -- civilian horseshowing has older roots that you credit. Shows of various kinds, local through national, including county and state fairs have been common more or less forever here in the States, and also in England and Ireland. I have quite a few civilian programs from the 19th and early 20th century.

Joe

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bob Wood</i>
<br />[In the last few years I have begun to feel vindicated. Too bad I am 58 and planning to retire. But now I found this website and I see I am not alone. It feels good.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Bob, glad you found us.

Pat

I bumped this up since we were discussing horsemanship books in another thread.

Thanks, Pat. I am taking a close look at some of these. I honestly believe that George Morris is misunderstood and honestly promotes the military seat, but that is just IMHO.

Jim

Thought I'd note these, given the recent discussion on the military seat.

Pat

INSTEAD OF THE "CREST HOLD....OR RELEASE"?.... WHY NOT USE THE BELT AROUND THE HORSE'S NECK AS THE ARMY DID? IT PUTS THE RIDER'S HANDS IN THE PROPER POSITION FOR THE "FULL RELEASE" AND PROTECTS THE HORSE'S MOUTH UNTIL THE RIDER ACHIEVES BALANCE. ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEA AS TO WHY THIS METHOD SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ABANDONED? COMBINE THAT WITH A "JUMPING CHUTE" AND ONE WOULD THINK THAT BALANCE WOULD ULTIMATELY DEVELOP WITHOUT HANDS.

WARREN

warrenmatha wrote:INSTEAD OF THE "CREST HOLD....OR RELEASE"?.... WHY NOT USE THE BELT AROUND THE HORSE'S NECK AS THE ARMY DID? IT PUTS THE RIDER'S HANDS IN THE PROPER POSITION FOR THE "FULL RELEASE" AND PROTECTS THE HORSE'S MOUTH UNTIL THE RIDER ACHIEVES BALANCE. ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEA AS TO WHY THIS METHOD SEEMS TO HAVE BEEN ABANDONED? COMBINE THAT WITH A "JUMPING CHUTE" AND ONE WOULD THINK THAT BALANCE WOULD ULTIMATELY DEVELOP WITHOUT HANDS.

WARREN

i think that overuse of the crest release has led to overall criticism of it, especially the short release which encourages riders getting way too forward on their horses' necks. but the technique isn't bad because it is abused. if taught right it is a good transitional tool to jumping out of hand and a valuable emergency reaction to have in a pinch- to grab mane, that is.

just my amateur opinion though, i know that there is some debate on the subject among knowledgeable and proficient instructors who are concerned about the excesses that it has led to. maybe they would label it a 'gateway' technique that leads to more sever vices. could be.

a jumping strap is a good thing too but a little different in that it is used in a school setting, without reins, under more controlled conditions, and isn't normally available when out riding.

i was drilled in the use of the crest release and it never became a habit. we also used a strap. and had to become proficient in exercises in 2 point, jumping without reins with the arms extended to the side etc- before being allowed to jump out of hand. -well in my case let's say 'somewhat proficient'- we also had to drop our stirrups often enough- sort of like a pop quiz- that it was prudent to keep up on this exercise on one's own time or suffer through a grueling lesson as a consequence of failing to do so. all these things, used appropriately, have their place in acquiring balance and, in the case of the crest release, avoiding jabbing the horse's mouth in the process.

sandy

Bump.

Bump.

Bump.