Forums at The Military Horse

My grandfather served in the war with the RHA, he also taught Officers to ride. He spent two days in a shell hole when his gun team, was blown up. He got back to his lines when troops advanced past the shell hole, surviving on his water bottle. The hole was filled with dead horse's and men from his gun team.
I wonder if any of the members have read Liddal Hart's account of the 1st World War, not sure if I have spelt the authors name right.

My Great Uncle Homer Hartley was drafted into the Army along with four others of our Monthly Meeting ( Quakers). They all went and because of their religion they refused to carry arms. They were by our standards now mistreated, beaten, starved worked at digging trenches and latrine pits ( sometimes empting them by hand) in order to break them. In those days there was no Consciences Objector status. Those five because of their fortitude and resolve there is now a C.O. status in the Military. From what I understand from talking with him and one other that was with him I learned that other than the Quakers there were several other religions that were treated as such. Much later the Government did give a special consideration for granting them honorable discharges.


Much later when I enlisted in the Army it seemed that every Company Commander had me in his office and asked me the same question; "Would I carry a weapon since I was recorded as having Quaker as my religion?" I answered yes every time. I had only one Company Commander not ask me that question, later I had a chance to ask him why he never did question me about it and he said that he had came in contact with the American Friends Service Committie while in Vietnam and found that when they gave their word they would never break it. It rose him into that status of " I would serve under him any day or time."

rayarthart wrote:My Great Uncle Homer Hartley was drafted into the Army along with four others of our Monthly Meeting ( Quakers). They all went and because of their religion they refused to carry arms. They were by our standards now mistreated, beaten, starved worked at digging trenches and latrine pits ( sometimes empting them by hand) in order to break them. In those days there was no Consciences Objector status. Those five because of their fortitude and resolve there is now a C.O. status in the Military. From what I understand from talking with him and one other that was with him I learned that other than the Quakers there were several other religions that were treated as such. Much later the Government did give a special consideration for granting them honorable discharges.


Much later when I enlisted in the Army it seemed that every Company Commander had me in his office and asked me the same question; "Would I carry a weapon since I was recorded as having Quaker as my religion?" I answered yes every time. I had only one Company Commander not ask me that question, later I had a chance to ask him why he never did question me about it and he said that he had came in contact with the American Friends Service Committie while in Vietnam and found that when they gave their word they would never break it. It rose him into that status of " I would serve under him any day or time."

Actually conscientious objector status has been recognized in the U.S. since colonial times, and was an established theoretical doctrine going into World War One. That doesn't mean it was always easily applied prior to WWI, as that certainly would not even be close to true. Some were really abused, like your relative. Probably most suffered from at least some pretty significant harassment.

Going into World War One the problem was that the concept of compulsory militia duty had expired, which had kept the concept at least smouldering a bit, and the draft was reinstated for the first time since World War One. There was a really pronounced shaming campaign in the population that deemed people not wanting to serve as cowards and the relatively limited number of Pacifists religious groups in the U.S. had expanded in the early 20th Century as groups came in from Europe an Russia who were also Pacifist. Those claiming conscientious objector status at the time had to actually prove the legitimacy of their claim after being sent to specific Army camps. Given the general hostility to the concept, and the fact that for a typical commanding officer the claim would come across as alien, it was a difficult thing to do. That actually explains why Alvin York spent a period of time trying to convince his commanders he was really a pacifist before he sort of changed his mind. Those who then had their claim accepted still had to do some sort of service. A few were actually court martialed.

About 4,000 men claimed conscientious objector status in World War One. Around 1300 of them stayed in the Army in non combat roles. Another 1200 served the war effort with farm furloughs (real service given farm labor shortages). 450 were court martialed and sentenced to prison. About 1000 never got out of the camps they were sent to during the war.

Part of this episode might be explained by the fact that the process was so odd at the time, and there is, and remains, real confusion over who is and is not a religious Pacifist. Quakers and Amish are the most mentioned groups, but not all Quakers are Pacifists. Richard Nixon, for example, was a Quaker and served in the Navy during World War Two. And you note your own service. All Amish are Pacifists, I think. Groups like the Molokans and the Doukhobors had come in from Russia where they'd been fierce opponents of the Russian Imperial Draft, but oddly they didn't all feel that way during World War One in regards to the U.S. Army. And confusion was compounded further by some members of the naissant socialist movements being opposed to serve on sincere, but non religious, grounds.

But not by most draft boards in general. Those five that were Quakers were from a area where Quakers were a minority. The draft board issued their notice to obtain the draft quota. When I turned 18 I Recieved my 1AO status from the draft board due to the fact I had a strong Quaker community behind me. During previous wars if you were of a religion that did not conform to war, you either had a choice to go, pay a substitute, or flat out refuse to go. One of my relatives was kicked out of the Quakers because he paid a substitute to serve for him during the Civil War.

rayarthart wrote:But not by most draft boards in general. Those five that were Quakers were from a area where Quakers were a minority. The draft board issued their notice to obtain the draft quota. When I turned 18 I Recieved my 1AO status from the draft board due to the fact I had a strong Quaker community behind me. During previous wars if you were of a religion that did not conform to war, you either had a choice to go, pay a substitute, or flat out refuse to go. One of my relatives was kicked out of the Quakers because he paid a substitute to serve for him during the Civil War.

Indeed, in the WWI draft, being a Conscientious Objector did not exempt you from the draft really. You still had to report. Those claiming the status were supposed to be sent to certain military camps, where their claims were assessed by their commanding officers. Naturally, most CO's of the period were probably likely to be somewhat skeptical of the claim, and to add to that the atmosphere of the time was have supported the skepticism. To add further, people were accustomed to being aware of some groups, like the Amish and the Quakers, but other groups were wholly new. Adding further, claims to that status made by social objectors, like deep Socialist, would tend to make most not objectors a little skeptical.

So, for World War One, a person person could claim Objector status, but they still were liable to conscription. Once conscripted, if they maintained that status, they were then supposed to be assigned to Army camps where that status could be assessed on an individual basis. That just didn't happen in some instances, the Alvin York example being the most well known, as in his case the assessment was made by his CO in his training unit, who argued against it with York. Chances are high that the arguing against it aspect was fairly routine, and in an era when the average Army officer was fairly likely to have at least some rudimentary understanding of basic Christianity, and at a time when it was not regarded as bad form for anyone, including government officials, to voice a view, that wasn't regarded as improper.

Should the objector continue to maintain his status, and convince the CO that he fit into a recognized category (which none of the non religious social objectors would fit) then the objector was supposed to be given one of several options. Overall, as we can see, this entire process was clumsy, which probably describes most of the processes used by the US for raising and equipping its army in World War One.

On prior wars (that is pre World War One), the only other war where we had national conscription was the Civil War. Both sides ended up conscripting into the national armies during the Civil War, and the Confederacy also conscripted horses. I don't know very much about Southern conscription, other than the upper age limit was high and that owners of substantial numbers of slaves and slave overseers were exempt from the draft (most Southern troops came form the yeoman class), so I don't know if they allowed for a paid substitute. The Union did, which as remained an enduring controversy. As a total aside, the ancestor of one of my friends actually immigrated from France during our Civil War with the very hope of taking advantage of that, he was a species of mercenary, but to his disappointment the war was over by the time he arrived. Anyhow, the Union had the paid substitute system. I can see what that probably upset the Quakers in your relatives case, as paying a substitute to go would be cutting the point rather close.

Anyhow, prior to World War One that was the only instance in which the Federal government directly conscripted for the Federal Army, so it's the only instance I'm aware of in which the paid substitute system existed. That doesn't mean, however, that it didn't exist otherwise. Americans, including historians, typically fail to recall that Americans were liable to militia duty from colonial days up until some point after the Civil War, which is really a species of conscription. That is, every single American male of military age was in the militia, and was supposed to muster annually, from colonial times up until after the Civil War when the system passed away in favor of the National Guard. The system had really been dieing since the early 19th Century, but it remained strong in some states until the Civil War, and it did cause objector problems in at least the Mexican War. I think Walt Whitman was jailed for refusing to muster for the war.

Anyhow, I don't know how objectors were handled in terms of the militia. Presumably a person who can't muster for war, couldn't for the annual muster either. I don't know if a paid substitute would have been an option, as everyone had to muster. It's an interesting question.

Also, regarding World War One, something that is worth noting that opponents to the war, or those who were of military age and who didn't volunteer, were in for a rough go in some localities, maybe most localities. Being a member of a minority objecting religion probably didn't get a person any sort of pass on that.

The most minor example of that, which still would be notable, is that young girls would pin men with feathers if they were notably remiss in volunteering. Nothing something most young men would readily endure, and no doubt more than a few volunteered to avoid that. An older man would be much more willing to just flat out state "pound sand, I don't care" but not too many young men.

Beyond that, however, some states passed anti sedition laws and really enforced them. Montana did that, and a recent examination of those convicted under that statute tended to show that your chances of being convicted were much higher if you were a member of one of the newer ethnic groups or otherwise one of the classes that was opposed to the war.

Wyoming didn't have an anti sedition law, but one of UW's historians recently published a fascinating article about an unfortunate German immigrant, over draft age, who was wrongfully accused of a serious crime by somebody who basically seemed to be scheming to take his ranch. A jury in Rawlins found him innocent, to its credit, but then he was immediately charged with some Federal crime of the anti sedition type (I can't recall the actual charge). He contested it, and there seemed to be no real reason for the charge other than the prosecutor was convinced he was guilty, but in the end he did end up leaving and lost his ranch. The 1915 to 1919 time frame in the US saw alot of odd things occur in terms of the law and public opinion.

"The most minor example of that, which still would be notable, is that young girls would pin men with feathers if they were notably remiss in volunteering.

It happened to one of my great uncles... and wasn't justified at all as he was working in a shipyard when the war began and went readily when drafted. (I have his draft letter!) He didn't actually get to France until a few weeks before the war ended but was assigned to the Army of Occupation and didn't get home until the end of 1921.

JV Puleo wrote:

"The most minor example of that, which still would be notable, is that young girls would pin men with feathers if they were notably remiss in volunteering.

It happened to one of my great uncles... and wasn't justified at all as he was working in a shipyard when the war began and went readily when drafted. (I have his draft letter!) He didn't actually get to France until a few weeks before the war ended but was assigned to the Army of Occupation and didn't get home until the end of 1921.

My mother has told me more than once that her mother was horrified that a young man in their town in Quebec had not entered the service, while my mother's service age brother had, this being in World War Two. The young man my grandmother was complaining about was seen exercising frequently, in an age when that was unusual. Then, he dropped dead on the Jacques Cartier Bridge, which goes over the St. Lawrence. Turned out that he was under doctor's orders to exercise as he had a weak heart. Goes to show, I suppose, that judgements of that type are risky.

Then there is "The General". At the outbreak of the civil war Buster Keaton's character is spurned by his flibbertigibbet girlfriend because he isn't dressed in grey. He can't enlist. He tries several times but the recruiting office, knowing that he is a railroad engineer and vital to the southern cause in that capacity, turns him down every time. But she doesn't know that, and brands him a coward. Thus begins one of the great movies of the silent, or any other, era. (No spoilers here-just see it if you haven't already)Though the story takes place during the american civil war it was written after WWI thus embodying the ethic of that later generation.

I don’t think it has already come up in the forum, but there is a WWI Centennial Conference scheduled in Washington DC on 14 June 2014. The commission for the event has a web site at this link

http://worldwar-1centennial.org/

At this point I do plan to attend and hope to have a display for the Lovett Artillery Collection web site.

https://www.facebook.com/FromTheSeaToTheSomme

An event in Europe. Anyone familiar with it?

The Imperial War Museum reopened with their WW 1 display and went to see it Sunday. I was pleased to see the museum was packed and even though I arrived 20 minutes after it opened I had to take a ticket for an hour later to go into the WWI display. Very popular but I thought it rather basic. That said it was certainly better than the Smithsonians one small room for WWI. No mention of mounted services or horses at all except for a few in the backgrounds of photos. I did particularly enjoy the VC and GC exhibit on the top floor.

On a separate note I took photos of headstones at the Commonwealth Cemetery in Voi, Kenya last month. The WWI cemeteries are very well kept in Kenya. Not one photo came out with my fancy new camera. A learning curve issue that I was obviously behind. I will be back there in a couple of months. Several headstones were for mounted infantry from South Africa and they were a long ride from home. And one from the Maxim Company, which I thought interesting.