Forums at The Military Horse

In regard to the protection of the border with Mexico, I can tell you that there is a major effort going on right now to address this. The old U.S. Customs Service is now called Customs & Border Protection (CBP) and comes under the Department of Homeland Security (DHS). The old INS is now called Immagration & Customs Enforcement (ICE) and comes under CBP. Right now they have the funding to encrease the number of officers patroling the border by a <b>substancial</b> number. The hireing process is well under way at this moment.

As to the use of horses for this mission I believe the controling factor is more of "cost" rather then "effectiveness". When you finish your shift, one merely parks his Hum-V and it sits there until the next shift. Training aside, it requires a lot to maintain a horse as we all know.

Jim

Roy,
Thanks, you have been there and know the situation we face. I doubt there is much difference in the discussions other than the accents.

The Texas-Mexico border has been a source of contention since we won our independance from Mexico in 1836. As late as the 1960's-70's there were legal and gun battles over the difference of the border being at the Rio Grande or the Rio Nueces (river). (I was born in the Nueces strip so it has some close meaning to me and my family.)

Mexican insurgents (Bandidos)have raided Texas ranches for almost a century. For period of time Texas responded swiftly and harshly ( by some stds other than Texan)and did curtail the violence to a degree.

We have a different situation today than Rhodesia faced when you were w/the Grey's. But the base response should be similar in regards to mounted units. The mounted agents working the Border can vouch for the success of the horse details.

But it is a hi-tech world and horses have no auxillary power supply to make the toys work.

Regards,
Ron Smith

Pat

I think that I am fast running out of any more input,that can be said about Grey's, unless any more questions come up I do not know what more can be said. However if there is to be a finale to this, I was asked the question about memoirs, dont worry I not about to write it here. But I would like to put into the Grey's history someone who made me not only write to forum, but made me join the Grey's at a time when there was need for me to do it. That is my wife, my wife and her family have had a long history with Southern Africa from the time her ancestors landed at the Cape, they were Huguenots. Treked with great trek from the Cape to Newcastle in the southern transvall, now you know where I got the horses from, that area, because I was told that thats where the good ones were.Then came the Boer war,her family fought with them, her great uncle was a former Boer commander Gen Pretorious who fought alonside Botha and Del La Rey, her maiden name is Botha. After the incarseration of her family in the camps, some of whom died there, they treked again to Rhodesia and started all over again farming. It was from her and members of the family that I learnt about the Boer commandoes and their tactics, so that when I did eventualy go to Grey's I had the idea to throw away the British Armys Manual of Equitation, and opt for the old way of fighting and training soldiers in Africa for african conditions, it would appear to have worked.Her support even though she had a full time job of her own, as a Reserve Patrol Officer in the Police, was some of the best source of information that I could have had.
I have put this in because I feel that I owe her and her family a debt of gratitude, for the help that they have given me.And because I feel that if it is only to answer quwestions and ask some I dont know what more I can say about Grey's.

Roy

Roy,

You've been very generous with us, and I greatly appreciate it. Indeed, this thread can probably go into the "greatest hits" cateogry, along with a few others, as it has had so much great information, and been so well read. That's all due to your participation. Indeed, I'd note that your first post was a valuable correction of an error this thread started off with.

I have say that between you and your wife you are the keepers of an amazing amount of history! Your wife's family's history alone is extremely intersting. And if she got you to post here, we also owe her a debt of thanks.

Pat

I agree with Pat, Roy has been a blessing for the Forum! I'm glad Roy's wife does not mind him spending so much time on the computer!

One specific question, acording to Jk Cillier's book on the Bush War, the Gery's Scouts were a small organization. He claims that they could field simultanously some 80 men in combat. (another source says they had 3 "saber" platoons (or maybe squadron is the corect word) of 27 men each plus a HQ of some 20, for a total of 100. The data seems to coincide as Cillier is interested on men on the field anyone time (meaning he's not counting people on leave, training etc). This point is interesting because Rhodesia had a manpower shortage and other forces had to relax admission standars and got excesivelly enlarged (apparently the Selous Scouts reached some 1800 an incredibly big number for a pseudo ops unit). I have heard numbers for the Grey Scouts of 200-250 men. I realice the unit grew with time so there can be no set number, but I'm curious on this point.

George Pat
Thank you for you kind remarks, I will still try to imput on other topics If am able. In answer to the question Grey's had a field strengh of five hundred men, consisting of three sabre squadrons two regular and one TA.
on an important note my wife has asked if I had mentioned it, it is something that I should have but did not. It is the story of Cpl Fanwell an african soldier, who was the first one that I taught to ride. Whilst in Grey's one of my other hats, was that I was a horsemasters examiner, lecturing on animal managent and other topics.A local riding school had a horsemasters franchise with Patomac USA, and we all had to be registered either examin or lecture. Cpl Fanwell was one of those people who had an imense talent where horses and riding were concerned . We applied to CO to send him and others on the couse, he passed the entrance exam with the others and was selected for the course. It was seen in this soldier a hope for the future, knowing that that independance was comeing he would have place in the future of his country. Without ever knowing that he passed the horsemaster examination, and the first african to have done so, he was killed when entering a village after tracking a ter stick for some five miles. A memorial was set up for him, but sadley after independance the stone and plaque were removed on the orders of the govt its wherabouts is uk but sources have told me that they would not allow it to be seen as he was, fighting on the wrong side, I hope that having put his name in to the story of Grey's he to can be remembered.

Thank you
Roy

Roy,

I may be repeating a quesiton I already asked (in which case I apologize) but did the Greys stick to conventional snaffle bits, rather than the distinct British military bit?

Also, as far as a bridle pattern, did it adopt a local civilian pattern or use a military one?

I'd ask the same question for the British South African police.

Pat

Pat

In answer tou your questions, firstly regarding snaffle bits these were only used, unless of course for skill at arms or some dressage comp, or ceramonial but then only for officers.

It was made localy but was based on the military style ie remove the snaffle and reins and you are left with a head collar with a lead rope or piquet rope.

They used the British pelham bits, also with ropes . I dont mind the questions.

Roy

Roy, thanks.

This link has some photos of the British Portsmouth bit, and a Britsh bridle. Was this the bridle type generally used?

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum_beta ... IC_ID=1959

The British portsmouth bit is an intersting looking bit, but I've never had the pleasure of seeing one in person. I wondered if snaffles were the rule in Rhodesia, as they seem to be the nearly universal rule for actual military field service nearly everywhere in the 20th Century.

Pat

Pat

The British Army used Potsmouth Reversable or Pelham for ceramonial , and the snaffle for exercise purposes. In Rhodesia the snaffle was more commanly used not just in the Army, dressage comp would only permit snaffles up to intermediate level. The rational behind this was that the snaffle was the least severe of bits, and if the rider had not mastered the their riding skills up to this level, then very litle harm could be done. I used a double bridle in some more advanced comps, but it should not be used if the horseman has not mastered the riding skills to support its use.
In general use the portsmouth is used with double reins, and is not practical for the type of work we undertook, once again we used the KISS principle {keep it simple stupid}, when training soldiers less pieces to mess around with ie makeing sure curb chains are correctly fitted. we did not want this, a soldier needed a quick simple way to mount up and be gone, and not fiddle around.

The ideal was always the snaffle with the bit head stall, similar to the Brits. I got so used to riding with a snaffle even on opps, that I still used it in skill at arms comp at the the gallop. But this can only about if you teach riders, to ride with soft hands and horses pushed into the bit {collection} this can be defined as horse steps into bit, not the other way round ie take the bit to the horse. More often than not bits are like feeding based on fads and fancies, a good check is in the horses mouth, if there is severe bluing on the bars in the roof of the horse mouth, then either the bit is severe or the riders hands are to hard.

Roy

Within the last year or so a backpack containing a Koran and a diary written in Arabic was found along the Douglas section of the Arizona border, reinforcing Roy's observation of terrorists using the the same incursion routes as "undocumented workers." I shouldn't be surprised if the "coyotes" who smuggle the illegals across the border are aware that not all of their customers are Hispanic, and just don't care as long as their money is good.

A trooper from Ft. Huachuca's cav unit told me that the unit had offered to do mounted patrols of the border immediately after 9/11, but were rebuffed; they were told that using the Army on the border violated the Posse Comitatus Act. I don't think that's correct, as the Act in question pervents the military from being used to enforce civil law, while the protection of the border is one of the prime jobs of the Gov't, established by the Constitution.

B45

Sorry to interupt[8)]....

...but I must thank G.A.Mackinlay for starting this thread and most of all Roy Elderkin for joining in with so much valuable information . I like many others on this site have been facinated by the Grey's Scouts from the moment I first heard of them, way back when. I have been waiting and am still waiting for the difinative work on this regiment. The info we recieved here is like the proverbial oasis in an apparent desert![:P]

If you or your wife do write a book Roy, put my name on the purchase list. If nothing else,what I think would go over quite well with this crowd is perhaps a training manual with plenty of photos of the "Scouts", sort of along the lines of the "Western Horseman" books if you've ever seen them. "The Making of the Modern Military Horseman", or something to that effect.[;)]

I have a question about saddlery. Having been with the King's Troop RHA and ridden using the British UPs, was it just because the Rhodesian copies you encountered were crap and the local "Macs" of better quality that Grey's Scouts switched,(this is getting convaluted)or do you think a good quality Brit, Aus, Canadian Universal Pattern,(02') would have stood up as well?

Thinking about weaponry. Was there a edict against using Terr weapons in the Greys? At that time in Rhodesia I cannot think of a better suited weapon than the AK for work on horseback. As you have mentioned, the FN/FAL is a heavy awkward firearm to use with one hand. The G3 not much better and the UZI in an inferior calaber. I suppose the South African version of the Galil was not available at that time either.

If I recall correctly, before setting out on their great treck west in 1874, the North West Mounted Police had their recruits spend many hours/days on the lounge line as well. The troopers then,had the same thoughts and opinions about it as your troopers did 100 yrs later![880] It sure seemed to work, in both cases!![;D]

Looking forward to hearing more from you Roy on many of the topics in this forum.





"ACER ET CELER"

Jack Kunst

Hi Anulf
Thank you for your comments, the interest in the saddlery was one of the main topics that we had to address in Grey's, initialy saddles from the police which were lent to us were British UPs. But they wanted them back, the South Africans sent some up but they were crap. IN the thread there is a ref to it and what was wrong with them. But I dont think it would have mattered, soldiers on opps complained that UPs were to fiddily when having to mount quickly on follow ups, they were too heavy. When we weighed UPs against fibre glass Mc Lennans the differance was seen almost at once. Thats why we opted for the light weight,and easy maintenance, we wanted to keep every thing below the 200 lbs mark, that included rider and equipment, even the weight of soldiers was brought into the factor. We did not have saddles from other countrys, they did not like us and would not supply even one for us to evalluate,even if we tried to get one on import it would have been stopped,because of the embargo.

Regarding the use of the AKs we would have used them, because they were a perfect weapon for us, but were not permitted to us them. It was only after the war, that the AK became the standard weapon of the unit. The South Africans were equaly not very forthcomeing with weapons and ammunition, very often using it as a tool to bring us to the peace table, or cease fire, by cutting of our supplys of ammunition, it nearly broke us at one stage but we got through it.

As to the book, I have over the years cobled together a collection of notes, perhaps one day it could be put together.

Roy

Jack brings up an interesting point on weaponry. I had some related questions or observations, but hadn't posted them as I figured I might be the only one interested in them.

Anyhow, I'd note that the Rhodesian forces seem to have been consistently equipped, at first, with the most latest weaponry then in use by the British army, or a near variant of it. At the time of the UDI, the British Army would have been using the L1A1 and the British version of the FNMAG GPMG. Both were made to inch patterns for British use. Britain would also have been using the Hi Power pistol, and the Sterling smg.

Rhodesia seems to have gone for the FN FAL, which is the same rifle as the L1A1 for the most part. I've wondered if it's rifles were inch pattern and if they included the L1A1 features, such as dirt slots in the bolt. I'd guess not. I'd also guess the desire was to stick with weapons that were very close to the British standard, so the Rhodesians adopted the FAL and the FN MAG. The Sterling must not have been adopted, which given it's somewhat antiquated configuration, might make sense.

I've also wondered if perhaps they stuck with these as the regional vegetation made a battle rifle, as opposed to an assault rifle (that is, a larger cartridge over an intermediate one) a better option for infantrymen. That a more compact rifle would have been nice for mounted infantrymen, such as the Greys, cannot be doubted. I'd guess that maybe the Greys just ended up with what everyone else had, although perhaps the folding stock version of the FAL would have been nice.

On the AKs, I know that ZANU was supplied by China and North Korea, and ZAPU by the Soviet Union, but I wonder if variants of the SKS might have been more common? I just don't know.

Well, I digress.

Very interesting information on the weight considerations.

On the BSAP UPs, did they stick with those throughout this period? Or did they go to the McClellan also?

On a book, Roy, let me echo Jack. I think you should write one.


Pat

During the Federation of Rhodesia & Nyassaland period (1957-1963), Great Britain supplied the weaponry, including L1A1 SLR, MAG GPMGs, Sterling SMGs, and HP 9mm pistols to regular units (RAR, RLI, SAS), up to Ferret armoured cars. There were even shipments of some hundreds of L1A1 from Australia. Territorials were still armed with .303 rifles.
After UDI, South Africa took over as armament supplier, the British weapons going to Territorial units and BSAP. SA FN FAL is of the metric pattern, can fire full-auto - which the SLR cannot - and have a rifle grenade sight around the front sight. The SA MAGs also differed on details from the British ones. SMGs were SA-made UZIs.
After 1975, the Rhodesians acquired (officially ?) many G3 rifles from the Portuguese who were then leaving Angola and Mocambique.

The Rhodesians kept the heavier 7.62 mm NATO ammo because it was more powerful in a bush environment. As an aside, it was standart practice to camouflage the weapons after 1977.

Many SKSs and AKs were captured from the CTs, either during internal or external ops. After registration by the Special Branch of the BSAP, many if not most were delivered to the Selous Scouts for their pseudo-ops and to the Rhodesian-trained RENAMO anti-communist guerillas in Mocambique (from 1976). Almost all versions from Communist block found their way into the conflict, included East-German, Romanian, &c.

Eric

Originally posted by the SaintAfter UDI, South Africa took over as armament supplier, the British weapons going to Territorial units and BSAP. SA FN FAL is of the metric pattern, can fire full-auto - which the SLR cannot - and have a rifle grenade sight around the front sight.

Eric, thanks for all the information.

On the above, I also wondered that too. Most FALs are semi-automatic only, and I was unaware that the South African FALs, let alone those sent to Rhodesia, were selective fire. I frankly would have assumed they were not, as the majority of FALs made are not. Very interesting.

It's also interesting that the South African FALs were the metric pattern. Quite a few nations that had English influence adopted the FAL (and of course a lot that had no English influence also did), but not all of them adopted the straight L1A1 variant. Australia did, but even some nations that traditionally used English arms did not.

Interesting also about the Sterlings.

I'd assumed that the G3s came from the Portuguese, but didn't know for sure. Thanks again.


Pat

I forgot to mention the SA-manufactured 9 mm Star pistol, based on the M1911 Colt, which was used alongside the Browning HP.

On the FN FAL, most military versions (at least those based on the original Belgian FAL) have selective fire, excepted the British and Australian L1A1s (I don't know about the Canadian C1). A couple of veterans of the Faulklands War (that is Brits) told me they took Argentinian FALs so they could use them in full-auto and get more fire-power.

Eric

Originally posted by the Saint
I forgot to mention the SA-manufactured 9 mm Star pistol, based on the M1911 Colt, which was used alongside the Browning HP.

On the FN FAL, most military versions (at least those based on the original Belgian FAL) have selective fire, excepted the British and Australian L1A1s (I don't know about the Canadian C1). A couple of veterans of the Faulklands War (that is Brits) told me they took Argentinian FALs so they could use them in full-auto and get more fire-power.

Eric

Like with JV earlier on the M91s, I find myself in friendly disagreement with most FALs having the selective fire feature. Somewhere I have a text with the list as to which had which, it may be in a Jane's book, and most, according to that, were not selective fire. This is based on FNs information on that. I'll post that information when I get a chance so that it can be considered for what its worth.

On that, the design difference is slight, so it is easy for an army to switch one to another, and that does occur. Even the British L1A1 was made in a very few selective fire variants, which were used at least to demonstrate the feature in Kenya during the early uprising there (whose name I've forgotten).

Anyhow, I'll list that information when I get a chance. It may be a day or two.

The C1 is not selective fire. I dimly recall that Canada made a lmg version, but it likely wasn't made in large quantities due to use of the MAG. It would have fired full auto, of course. Generally the lmg versions of the FAL, while made, were less than fully successful.

Pat

Just prior to the semi auto ban, which has no expired, a lot of FALs were imported into the US, some in parts, for sporting arms. This was an assortment of the semi auto ones in the case of receiver parts. The ones that came in were British L1A1s, some C1s (apparently), some Israeli ones (again apparently), and Austrian Steyr manufactures ones. Some Australian, Brazilian and Argentinian ones also came in, with new made Imbel receivers coming in. Quite an assortment.

Some of these resulted in a real mishmash of rifles when later assembled. Inch with metric, and everything else. Not very representative of the better part of FAL production.

Pat

For the most part we got what were given, and like it. It is quite correct that other weapons were given to the more clandestine operations, Grey's were issued with the star later on in its life to replace the nine mm fn. Ammunition used in the FN was the 7.62mm intermediate, all though interestingly a batch of ammo we received from SA had plastic heads, which we used for weapons training so as not use standard ammo. This came up when the SADF loaned some Eland 90mm armoured cars to us , these stayed with us until the finish, an opp involving us and armoured cars occurred at Vila Salazar on the Mozambique border, when we came under motor fire from a border post, a 90mm stopped any more bombs, and we took the area including the motors.
The police continued to use their own saddles,not Mclennans.

Roy

Pat
I should have mentioned it was the Mau Mau in Kenya, led Jomo Kenyata.

Roy