Forums at The Military Horse

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by george seal</i>

Even in guerrilla war, the police have a role. In the successfull British sistem, the police (specially colonial constabularies) actually lead the army in counterinsurgency war.

Adittionally you have peace operations. This happen in a bellicose environment. (example:Australians decided to arm their police in peace operations after witnessing a huge massacre just outside the UN garrison). Sddittionally the UN has detected a big quality issue with civilian police. Allmost all armies, even bad ones, have some core skills: discipline, fighting ability, capacity to operate and survive in field conditions, clear chains of command. However in Police, every country is different. Some are almost worthless. Police tend to have more corruption issues. Militarized police, solve this problem, plus they work well with armies.
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You made me think about the fact that a simple Carabiniere is a Corporal to any soldier of other Army's arms, this means that in case of need, he can order soldiers he steps into to help him carrying out a task: obviously this has ever been of more theoretical nature, but in recent times (first gulf war, territory control in Sicily after the Falcone assassination and other cases were the army was called to guard "stationary objectives" relieving Carabinieri and other police forces from these "unproductive" duties for better emplying them on the streets) this was often the case.
I don't necessarily agree that corruption is no issue in a militarized environment, but theoretically you are right as far as discipline, clearer chain of command and "survivability" goes.
Plus, a civilian policeman in Sarajevo could refuse to step in a situation he judges too risky for himself, whereas a police "soldier" would have more scruples in doing so, out of drill and discipline.

Pat, here in Italy is usual to see Police and Carabinieri doing traffic checkpoints wearing bullet proof jacket or just patroulling city street by foot sporting 9mm. Beretta M12 submachine gun but I think they would rather let shot themself before even start considering the remote possibility of pulling the trigger as the rules for using such weapon are very strict and severe. Of course it is more for the psychological impact, I think.

Luigi

The use of automatic weapons by civilian Police is more common now in the U.S. than it was 4 years ago. Although not as common as it is in Europe.

9-11 brought about many changes, New Yourk is an example. NYPDD has officers openly carrying MP-5 Automatic weapons in many locations in plain view.

A few other major metropolitan police forces are doing that as well.

Regards,
Ron Smith

I hope they were instructed thorougly before being issued with such weapons, I mean not only in handling them but also and above all in the rules of engagement.

Well, I rather think that showing such weapons has the main purpoise of generating a (false) sense of safety and of being protected in the common citizen walking by, for it is hardly thinkable to use such a weapon with relative safety in crowded environments: of course, in this terrorists have a huge advantage because they are seeking what police tries to avoid, namely unnecessary civilian casualities, as the strike at the EL-AL desk at Fiumicino Airport in 1987 showed.
I went under a safety sensibilization course a few days ago (I work in the Airport) and they recalled this example, and I am still under a deep impression thereof, so pleas excuse the little digression: campared to the means used, one wonders that the result wasn't much worse.
Three palestinian terrorists assaulted the El-Al check in and adiacent restaurant with Kalashnikows and ananas-hand granades and the outcome was 10 killed and over 70 wounded more or less heavy in around 1 minute of continuous fire before El-Al security and Italian Police could eventually disable all three terrorists (2 dead 1 heavy wounded). I understand that in this occasion the Police only used their pistols, as did El-AL security: I think if they had used the MP12 the outcome would have been by far worse.

To take the topic a littel back on track: I'm not aware of mounted police issued with automatic weapons as ordinary outfit...

Luigi

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by luigi</i>
<br />I hope they were instructed thorougly before being issued with such weapons, I mean not only in handling them but also and above all in the rules of engagement.

To take the topic a littel back on track: I'm not aware of mounted police issued with automatic weapons as ordinary outfit...

Luigi
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In Chile Carabineros and Investigaciones (investigation Police) use submachineguns with relative pervasiveness, but most time they are saved for night rides on drug trafikers and such, but you can see them on the street. I've been questioned by UZI wielding Carabineros and never thought twice about that. 7,62mm Assault rifles are reserved for very dire situations and frontier use. In riots Carabineros uses Mowag Roland armored cars. Sometimes you can see them on the streets, they scare my mom but nobody else. When my dad was a small boy, all Carabinero patroll cars carried a very visible Madsen SMG.

I have not seen mounted Carabineros with auto weapons in Santiago (they carry rifles at the frontier). However, police in all terrain motorbikes routinely carry auto pistols (instead of the usual weel gun) and the compact UZI pistol.

Local FAMAE now is manufacturing the SAF machine pistol similar to the HK MP-5 and Investigaciones and carabineros use them, specially for GOPE (Chilean equivalent of SWAT). For export they market a semi auto police carbine in 40Smith and Wesson version of the SAF. That controls firing better than spray guns and has more stopping power.

As for mounted police with auto weapons, you have the camel mounted police forces in India, Jordan and (after several years of disbandment) Israel. This forces are very militarized and have seen heavy combat in war and counterterror ops.

Luigi, you mentioned the idea of a civilian policeman in a place like Sarajevo being unwilling to face risks. You are very right.

I might have mentioned this before, but it's relevant to this discution. In the Military Acaddemy I met several officers that served in the former Yogoslavia in the UN. One told me a US police chief tried to evacuate police during an emergency. He never gave me the name of the police departement because he had worked with the man a lot. Finally the emergency (related to mafia killings to capture oil and gasoline stocks and service stations in Kosovo, was controlled by NATO MPs (who officially were not doing police work).

I recorded that interview, so I'll look it up during the weekend to get my facts right.

This does not mean I don't like US police. It's just a problem of what you train officers to do and what missions you assign them. In fact I have very good memories of the Miami Police when my mom's rental car was vandalized. They were very good and helpfull. But it's just not the same kind of policing.

Mounted policemen at demonstration in Ecuador.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ ... qto106.jpg

Pat

Mounted policeman at soccar riot in Argentina, December 17:
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... BAS02D.jpg

RCMP officers, with Pres. Bush and PM Martin.
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... AND118.jpg

Chilean mounted police officers at recent summit in Chile.
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... XRM101.jpg
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... XRM101.jpg

Thai soldiers policing an area of unrest prior to the recent Tsunami disaster. These fellows could perhaps use a horse.
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... AN03D_.jpg

Australin police mounted on an early alternative to the horse, demonstrating that horse mounted police look a whole lot more professional than some of the alternatives, Sidney, December 25.
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... SYD52D.jpg

Pat

The link to the German mounted officers at Heidelberg doesn't work anymore. [:(]

I wanted to show them to a friend of mine. He is an NRW officer, and will be transferring from Stuttgart, to Heidelberg.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Dave J.</i>
<br />The link to the German mounted officers at Heidelberg doesn't work anymore. [:(]

I wanted to show them to a friend of mine. He is an NRW officer, and will be transferring from Stuttgart, to Heidelberg.
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A lot of the links are to AP and Reuters photos, so they expire after a while.

What is the NRW?

Pat

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
What is the NRW?
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Ooops, it's actually a mistake. [:I]

German's don't have city departments, like we do in the US. They have a different department for each state (16 states)NRW is North-Rhine Westphalia, which was wrong. My friend works for Baden Wurttemberg, not NRW. He was based out of Stuttgart, and is going to transfer to Heidelberg.

Does anyone know anything first-hand about this outfit:

http://www.mountedpatrol.com/

This is the website for Alpha-Omega Svcs, a mounted patrol for hire. They seem to cultivate a "Mountie" look. I first found a blurb about them while researching Aussie saddles, oddly enough. I had forgotten about them until I looked in on this topic.

B45

My first post on the website - nice site - nice thread, pretty danged eclectic, folks! heh heh I'm with the U.S. Forest Service in Flagstaff, Arizona, Coconino National Forest, where we use horses and mules for a lot of our work, including Wilderness patrol, packing for trail crews and fires, parades, general patrolling, public contact, etc.

Keeping livestock going in the FS has been a real challenge over the last 15 years or so, as there was a "scandal" back around 1990, resulting in the fairly extreme downsizing of the agency program, coupled with a change in the agency where fewer people coming in want to ride a horse. Instead, they want to ride an ATV or drive the roads in a pickup. So, it's been a challenge keeping the FS herds going for many parts of the country, which has been tough, since the agency used to use livestock exclusively, and you were required to be a rider in order to work for us. (Bear with me, I'll eventually get to the mounted police relevance)

Of course, many remote FS units still use livestock a lot, particularly in large Wilderness areas, and where cattle grazing is big, but for the most part, many FS units today do not use livestock very much.

About ten years ago, in an effort to further the use of livestock in general in government work, we began sharing livestock with our county sheriff here in Flagstaff, Arizona. Budgets keep getting tighter, and when things are cut, bean-counters usually look at livestock first to cut, and so operating efficiently and effectively becomes of primary concern.

Anyway, through these last years we've shared our horses with the Coconino County Sheriff's Office, who are also strapped budget-wise, and now most of our animals have been through forty hours and more of formal police academy training (Scottsdale Police Department), and are used routinely by five or six deputies for mounted police work of all types, including patrolling, community outreach, SAR, crowd control, parades, evidence searches, etc. Couple this with their backcountry experience, and the horses (and mules) end up pretty cross-trained and able, I think.

Our challenges have mostly been with things like scheduling, as the animals can often be needed for different uses at the same time, tacking types and standards, English/Western "stuff", etc., but we work through things, and I think most participants will agree this is a great way to go, and has actually resulted in the expansion of our herd, as others see the effectiveness and efficiency of the program and become supporters.

Our latest modifcation of the program is that instead of letting the horses stand around in the snow for the most part during winter (If you didn't know, Flagstaff, while being in Arizona, is at 7,000 ft, and gets a lot of winter), we now share our herd in the winter with the Tonto National Forest down around Phoenix, and the animals are used all winter long packing supplies to trail crews, patrolling Wilderness, etc.

I know we're not the only two agencies that do this, but I don't know of very many that do ..... and it works pretty darned well, and is good for horseworld ......

Thanks! Going to go look for a link about the Pershing Punitive Expedition I saw you guys talking about ..... the father of an old buddy of mine in Kingman, Arizona (Tom McConnell) was with Pershing for the whole deal, and has a lot of his Dad's stuff, including manuals, photos, poetry, etc. I'd like to hook him up with this site (he has a computer) to get some of that info out to you ....

John

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bisley45</i>
<br />Does anyone know anything first-hand about this outfit:

http://www.mountedpatrol.com/

This is the website for Alpha-Omega Svcs, a mounted patrol for hire. They seem to cultivate a "Mountie" look. I first found a blurb about them while researching Aussie saddles, oddly enough. I had forgotten about them until I looked in on this topic.

B45

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The Alpha-Omega Svcs. (AOS) is strictly a Courtesy Patrol. They have no powers of any kind and are eyes, ears and a presence only. They are not or were not a Licensed Security Company.

Many of these riders are fairly well trained horsemen though and are good at what they are doing. When I was active, they had patrols in some Shopping Centers in our District and did deter crime by their presence.

The Mountie look is exactly what they are trying to achieve, also they wear those colors so as not to be mistaken for a Police/Security Officer.

Regards,
Ron Smith

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by FtValleyPS</i>
<br />My first post on the website - nice site - nice thread, pretty danged eclectic, folks! heh heh I'm with the U.S. Forest Service in Flagstaff, Arizona, Coconino National Forest, where we use horses and mules for a lot of our work, including Wilderness patrol, packing for trail crews and fires, parades, general patrolling, public contact, etc.

Keeping livestock going in the FS has been a real challenge over the last 15 years or so, as there was a "scandal" back around 1990, resulting in the fairly extreme downsizing of the agency program, coupled with a change in the agency where fewer people coming in want to ride a horse. Instead, they want to ride an ATV or drive the roads in a pickup. So, it's been a challenge keeping the FS herds going for many parts of the country, which has been tough, since the agency used to use livestock exclusively, and you were required to be a rider in order to work for us. (Bear with me, I'll eventually get to the mounted police relevance)

Of course, many remote FS units still use livestock a lot, particularly in large Wilderness areas, and where cattle grazing is big, but for the most part, many FS units today do not use livestock very much.

About ten years ago, in an effort to further the use of livestock in general in government work, we began sharing livestock with our county sheriff here in Flagstaff, Arizona. Budgets keep getting tighter, and when things are cut, bean-counters usually look at livestock first to cut, and so operating efficiently and effectively becomes of primary concern.

Anyway, through these last years we've shared our horses with the Coconino County Sheriff's Office, who are also strapped budget-wise, and now most of our animals have been through forty hours and more of formal police academy training (Scottsdale Police Department), and are used routinely by five or six deputies for mounted police work of all types, including patrolling, community outreach, SAR, crowd control, parades, evidence searches, etc. Couple this with their backcountry experience, and the horses (and mules) end up pretty cross-trained and able, I think.

Our challenges have mostly been with things like scheduling, as the animals can often be needed for different uses at the same time, tacking types and standards, English/Western "stuff", etc., but we work through things, and I think most participants will agree this is a great way to go, and has actually resulted in the expansion of our herd, as others see the effectiveness and efficiency of the program and become supporters.

Our latest modifcation of the program is that instead of letting the horses stand around in the snow for the most part during winter (If you didn't know, Flagstaff, while being in Arizona, is at 7,000 ft, and gets a lot of winter), we now share our herd in the winter with the Tonto National Forest down around Phoenix, and the animals are used all winter long packing supplies to trail crews, patrolling Wilderness, etc.

I know we're not the only two agencies that do this, but I don't know of very many that do ..... and it works pretty darned well, and is good for horseworld ......

Thanks! Going to go look for a link about the Pershing Punitive Expedition I saw you guys talking about ..... the father of an old buddy of mine in Kingman, Arizona (Tom McConnell) was with Pershing for the whole deal, and has a lot of his Dad's stuff, including manuals, photos, poetry, etc. I'd like to hook him up with this site (he has a computer) to get some of that info out to you ....

John
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Welcome to the forum and we'll look forward to more posts, and perhaps your friend with the Punitive Expedition father might stop in also!

Pat

Mounted Park Police in front of Capitol
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... AS408D.jpg

New York Mounted Police and Wade Boggs. Note the double bridle.
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... 6NY166.jpg

Pat

quote pat:
New York Mounted Police and Wade Boggs. Note the double bridle.
http://channels.netscape.com/fotosrch/3 ... 6NY166.jpg

Pat
----------------------------

He he, also note that the rider is not holding and using it like the more purist would like to see... ;D

Luigi

FtValleyPS
I found your post really interesting. Your horses must be really accoustomed to almost everything!
What kind of "hardware" (saddle, bridle a.s.o.) are used in service? U.S. military kind, english, western?

Thank you

Luigi

As an aside, and for what is worth, also the Italian Forestry Service (Corpo Forestale) is expanding, it seems, the use of horses and mules again.

Luigi

Luigi, for Forest Service work we use mostly western tack, including saddles with horns for pulling logs from trails, pulling trail drags, and for working with cattle. For the most par we use snaffle bits because of the many different riders we can sometimes have on our horses, but some of our riders use mild curb bits. We emphasize proper saddle and tack fit, riding technique, and safety, considering the many different riders, all in an attempt to minimize potential harm to the animals, spoiling, or loss of training.

For our law enforcement work we use Australian saddles and Kimberwicke bits. Our lead sheriff's deputy was on the Marine Corp Mounted Color Guard in Barstow, California for many years, using only mustangs, and he is very good at this type of work.

We use mostly quarter horses for their temperament, size,and ability to pull and do most any type of work we do. We have used Missouri Foxtrotters quite a bit in the past, but prefer the quarter horse for all around purposes. (don't getcher' hackles up guys)

John

Thank you FtValleyPS

Luigi

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/fotosrch/3/ ... POP02D.jpg

Isreali mounted policeman, April 10, 2005.



Pat