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Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat

Following my trip to South Africa I have out the following which may be of interest.
Firstly Zimbabwe Grey' Scouts is alive and well but goes undere the name of Zimbabwe Mounted Infantry Grey's Scouts. It is now useds extensively for anti poaching opps and cattle rustling, there is a lot that going on, but interestingly it contains a large number of female soldiers, its training and opps procedures are still based on the standards laid down on the Rhodesian way of doing things.

This is interesting to note, as it would place Zimbabwe in the category of one of those nations retaining cavalry, although it sounds as if they are using it in the police role.

It is worth noting that the ZAP still have a mounted section for ceramonial duties ie the escort for the president at the state oppening of parliment. They wear the same mounted uniform used by the BSAP,ie white pithe helmets and lances the only change is the name.

I wonder why the police didn't retain a mounted unit for the field, given as the army is being used in that fashion?

In another thread, spurs were not worn.

Very interesting to note. I would have thought that they would have been worn, given the necessity to make certain that cues could be delivered in combat. But they would be a hindrance with the more conventional boots worn. This must mean that emphasis was placed in training on the effective use of cues without spurs.

South Africa has a different story ,the mounted infantry has almost ceased to exist, but they still train the SA Police, mounted police section who carry out mounted patrols in Johannesburg, and Durban as well as escorting the SA President in state opening of Parliament.

Very interesting.

Pat

Pat

You have led me into an area that I have tried to avoid, that of the political soldier. When I and others were requested to stay on after independance, and retrain all former combatants we did so on the understanding that all the standards we aimed at in the Regt, would be retained. This was readily agreed to, the Govt saw that this was a highly proffesional unit, well trained and disciplined. I t also had the ability to opperate at two levels ie support to the civil power,police, and if required to be used in pure military role. The flexability of the Regt is well documented, this is why it was retained and not disbanded like other Regt's. Having had long talks whilst in SA the conclusions were that the Govt could at any time bring in its mounted infantry, to quell any thoughts of a coup . Put its army on the street's and in field if necessary ,the role would then be reversed ie police supporting the army not the other way round. The Govt new it would have a strong hand , indeed at the Idependace day parades Grey's are there to reinforce this.

I and others who were responsible for the Grey's continuation, have unfourtunately left a legacy, and as you have said there is still cavalry alive and well, all though I do not regard myself as a cavalry man, but a mounted infantry soldier.If we had not been so good at our training methods and mounted infantry tactics perhaps Grey's would no longer exist, but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I would like readers of the forum if they can, to read some publications by the Rand Corporation 1991 they are Lessons for Contemporary Counterinsurgencies: The Rhodesian Experience. Writing in 1979 LL Mathews observed in World Armies that the war being fought in Rhodesia by the security forces was a "campaign of extreem professioal competance that will deserve a place in the worlds staff college courses for many years to come". This I am afraid Pat is what the Zim Govt has inhereted from Grey's, and I am partly to blame for this.

In regard to the non use of spurs, it was found that they were liable to hook up when dismounting in contact situations, in heavy bush or eliphant grass. And you are correct that the emphasis was placed on our training techniques in that aids were applied without the use of spurs, but the aid was transmitted by the leg and seat movement.

Roy

Those interested in the Rhodesian bush war might also be reading COUNTER-INSURGENCY IN RHODESIA by Jackie Cilliers. It is available there :
http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/Books/rhodesia/Contents.htm

There are several books about Rhodesia's special forces (SAS, Selous Scouts, &c.), but the one on Grey's Scouts remained to be written (an idea for your old days, Roy ?). I have only gathered half a dozen articles over the years.

Eric

Roy, I agree with Eric, I think you should consider putting the story of the Grey's into a book.

As for your legacy, I can only see that you served professionally in the army you were in. What politicians develop that legacy into later is not the fault of the soldier. We all have hindsight, but our foresight is really only a guess. We all have hindsight, but our foresight is really only a guess. I don't think anyone foresaw things developing into their current state.

Pat

Thanks Eric

During the Rebellion of 1896 three Victoria Crosses were awarded ,one was awarded to an original Grey's Scout Trooper Frank William Baxter V.C.( Posthumous).During a skirmish with the Matabele at Umgusa the Grey's were withdrawing to escape being encircled when a Corporal Wise was mounting his horse to retire. He was hit in the back, the ball traversing his shoulder- blade and came out near his collar bone,his horse broke away and was left stranded. Trooper Baxter turned his horse round and went to assist Wise. In the face certain death, Baxter dismounted and placed Wise on his own horse and sent it galloping out of the fight, he then set of to follow on foot, after attempted efforts to pick him up he was overrun but continued to fight but was killed.
Umgusa Barracks became the home of the present day Grey's in honour of the above.The initials VC were added after his name on the Matebele Rebellion War Memorial in the centre of main street Bulawayo, this memorial has since been removed on the orders of the present Zimbabwe Govt it location is unknown.
It is of interest to note that besides Grey's that was involved in this incident, two other mounted units were Giffords Horse and the Rhodesia Horse. It was said that the ill fated Jameson raid into South Africa in 1895 virtually stripped the population in Rhodesia of its Police Force and principle weaponry leaving open to rebellion.
I hope this will be of interest Eric and will ad to your articles.

Roy

Thanks Roy.
I own a book dealing with the history and badges of the Rhodesian Armed Forces 1890-1980, by Dudley Wall, but there are only summaries of the history of each units.

BTW, the Grey's Scouts were included in the Special Forces Brigade when it was created in 1978.
Roy, do you remember if the scorpion patch was worn in the regiment ?

Eric

Eric
No it was not worn

As an aside, I should have mentioned long ago that a place where a photo of a Grey's Scout can be seen has been up here on this site for quite awhile, on that part of it which incorporates, through David H's generosity, the material from the UP Research site he was the author of, and which has been incorporated here for some time.

http://www.militaryhorse.org/upsaddle/features.htm

Pat

Hi Pat
Thats me again on frazer, I have the original photo.If you want I will send it.

Roy

Pat
I have some photos of the RHA when I was with the Kings Troop they may be of interest to the forum I will send them by the other means.

Roy

Thanks again Roy for the info.
The SF Brigade patch seems to have been rarely worn, though I have in my collection one Engineer Sergeant Tartan Green jacket with it. But I am going a bit off-topic there.

Eric

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Hi Pat
Thats me again on frazer, I have the original photo.If you want I will send it.

Roy

Great!

Pat

Originally posted by roy elderkin
Pat
I have some photos of the RHA when I was with the Kings Troop they may be of interest to the forum I will send them by the other means.

Roy

You bet! We'd be most interested!

Pat

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by the Saint</i>
<br />Those interested in the Rhodesian bush war might also be reading COUNTER-INSURGENCY IN RHODESIA by Jackie Cilliers. It is available there :
http://www.iss.co.za/pubs/Books/rhodesia/Contents.htm

There are several books about Rhodesia's special forces (SAS, Selous Scouts, &c.), but the one on Grey's Scouts remained to be written (an idea for your old days, Roy ?). I have only gathered half a dozen articles over the years.

Eric

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks for the link Eric. I have one of the books by ISS.
Check out the cover of "After the Commandos The Future of Rural Policing in South Africa".

Eric ,
I am working on it but time is not on my side, although I have sent some parts of it to the forum Pat has included it in previous threads, as to memours no not just yet.

Roy

Hi George

You e mailed me the other day did you have any luck with the Rhodesian Army Association, if not let me know I have some other contacts you could use, also some publication ref from the Rand Corporation, that could help your thesis.

regards Roy

I'd be curious as to what the training regime was like. I note that it clearly seems to be the case the troopers were taught to be able to fire their rifles while mounted, and at the gallop. And they also did not use spurs. Was substantial emphasis give to leg cues, etc?

Pat

Pat

The training regine that we undertook, was I have to say extreemly hard, in that recruits spent the first three weeks on the end of a longe line. We had to decide what kind seat we were aiming for, baring in mind that soldiers were to undertake not just hours in the saddle but days, in all types of terain. So we compromised and opted for a loose but balanced seat, not the fixed military one usualy associated with parade grounds, this we could introduce when required.

By spending three weeks on the longe, and this applied to the non riders as well as riders, we were able to teach leg and body movements without the recruit having to worry about controlling the horse with the hands. This worked well, recruits were then sent to the outdoor schools menages, where they were able to continue this type of training under an experienced instructor, who reinforced the leg aids by putting the recruits through a series of individual training movements and quadrill exercises. The rides were broken up into four groups and depended on the dregree of their riding ability, the most senior of these groups would come to me for more advanced training ie dismounting at the gallop, rifle drills ,shooting from the horses back. Because of the way in which we grouped rides, the object was to bring those who initialy were non rides up to or as close to the senior rides. The whole time reinforceing the aids or leg cues as you refer to them.

This whole process taking a further four weeks, to bring everyone together, for the final stages of training.As recruits became more and more competant we put them through obsticle crossings ie how to deal with a barbed wire fence, steep banks up or down, river crossings, basing up procedures . When we were satisfied that they could handle any of this we then taught them to fire at the gallop. The only time this was to be used was in immediate ambush drills, and shooting from a horses back ,unlike western pictures is extreemly hard to do, and dificult to hit anything. But the reason we did teach this, was to put as much fire power down ,when going through the ambush so that the ambushers had to keep their heads down. It also served another purpose and that was to get horses used to rifle fire, we did this a lot, using thunder flashes to simulate grenade and mortor fire. Experienced horsemen were used to assist the not so and acted as a sort of horse holder, so that the beginners could gain confidence in what they had been taught, all this was amplified by using a well balanced seat and the horse responding to leg aids in its lateral movements. Soldiers were also taught diagonal riding that is at the trot, and were taught to change the diagonal when posting so that horses would not become one sided , this also eases a horses back if used for long periods, change of leg at canter was also taught for the same purpose, as well as directional turns. In all the training program was intense, al through the program if soldiers were not able to progress through the levels they were liable to be RTUD ( returned to unit} or given extra lessons to bring up to standard, or in some cases they dropped out themselves. All this time soldiers were also required to undertake their infantry skills and bring them together to form mounted infantry tactics.

Crossing a barbed wire fence with horses brings about its own problems, firstly the formation is exposed whilst it trys to cross and secondly horses and barbed wire dont mix. Greys developed a method on over coming this, firstly by using the infantry tactic of securing the other side, before crossing a detachment would dismount cover the fence whilst another group would go beyond the fence to secure the other side, once this is achieved, the fence posts were pulled out ,the wire was held down and horse were taken across the unit remounted and the patrol continued. Not that were many barbed wire fences where we opperated, but all of this was included in the training program as well as the river crossings. We did not like horses going into deep water, crocs like horse meat and humans.

Not that crocs were the only hazard, a trooper riding a horse called Baguta part boerperd cross draught horse had an unfourtunate incident with a lion, the lion decided trooper or no trooper lept on the horses back, big mistake Bagtuta let go with size twelve hind feet and kicked the lion who promptly got of and was last seen taking off into bush, he was not a happy lion. The moral of this story, is that if it had not been for the skill of the trooper, and the courage of the horse, the story would have had ended another way, we prided ourselves on the standards we worked for and would not compromise in training.

I hope that this gives some insight into the training regime of Grey's,.A great deal can be obtained from working animals with this method ie leg and seat. An old friend of mine who was once an instructor in the Polish Cavalry, said to me that if a horse performs, whether it is in the dressage arena or other forms of equitation, without the aid being visible then you are half way there, the rest is in the seat,back and the hands.

Roy

Roy, thank you very much for your detailed reply.

For quite some time I've wondered how long the training periods for various mounted forces was. It's quite a task, really, to take a group of men and train them to ride in a fashion suitable for military employment. As Joe pointed out in an earlier thread, the amount of riding troopers did is so much more than anyone know normally does, that it can hardly be appreciated.

The number of weeks you give compares relatively closely, as I understand it, with the basic equine training given by the US Army in the 30s in terms of time. interesting to note that.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by roy elderkin</i>
<br />Pat

The training regine that we undertook, was I have to say extreemly hard, in that recruits spent the first three weeks on the end of a longe line. We had to decide what kind seat we were aiming for, baring in mind that soldiers were to undertake not just hours in the saddle but days, in all types of terain. So we compromised and opted for a loose but balanced seat, not the fixed military one usualy associated with parade grounds, this we could introduce when required.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It'd be interesting to know more about the seat. From your description here, I wonder how it would compare with the Ft. Riley seat? I suspect it may not have been all that different.

The amount of time on the longe is quite interesting.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
We did not like horses going into deep water, crocs like horse meat and humans.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yikes!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Not that crocs were the only hazard, a trooper riding a horse called Baguta part boerperd cross draught horse had an unfourtunate incident with a lion, the lion decided trooper or no trooper lept on the horses back, big mistake Bagtuta let go with size twelve hind feet and kicked the lion who promptly got of and was last seen taking off into bush, he was not a happy lion. The moral of this story, is that if it had not been for the skill of the trooper, and the courage of the horse, the story would have had ended another way, we prided ourselves on the standards we worked for and would not compromise in training.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Wow!

Very intersting again on the omission of spurs. Horse can be ridden, of course, without spurs, and some riders who wear spurs don't really know how to use them properly, but in a military unit this may be a unique example.

Pat

After noting that the non spur use may be unique, I went and looked at the posts on Portugese dragoons and I see I was wrong. It would appear here that normally Portugese dragoons didn't wear them either. Indeed, in at least one of these photos the trooper is wearing canvass jungle boots, which look like a very poor riding boot:

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum_beta ... PIC_ID=928

As Miguel noted in these threads, officers sometimes provided their own boots, and it appear here that in one photo an officers is wearing spurs with private purchase boots.

I threw this one in here to note the Portugese dragoon depicted in the last photo. Note how heavily laden he is in comparison to the Rhodesian Grey's Scouts depicted in this thread.

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum_beta ... IC_ID=2003

A few more photos are here, although they don't illustrate the topic mentioned here. I just decided to post the link for completeness.

http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum_beta ... IC_ID=2223

Pat

Alhough not fully conversant, with the Ft Riley seat, I have looked up the photos on another thread. I t would appear that the two types of seat Grey's and Ft Riley are not dissimilar, although the strait back of the officer would be difficult to maintaine whilst on opps, but would repectfully sugest that it is a photo pose. But deisregarding this, the leg length, depth of seat and position of rider is about perfect for the type of seat we tried to produce. Not gripping with knees, a loose but balnced seat sitting in the centre of the saddle, horse well up to the bit, the horse well basculed, the rider at ease with his saddle and horse. The lower leg slightly away from the horses body, flat thighs, and stirrup iron just below the ankle bone, to administer the aid the foot is turned slightly in, bringing the heel and lower leg into contact ,not jabbing but squeezing ,the heel lifted slightly to press home the aid. And also to lift the the horse into the bascule, horses carry a rider better with a rounded back than a flat one. All this could be achieved on the longe, where corrections can be made and rectified. We did not all escape this all instructors were required to spend one hour, per month on the longe just in case we got into bad habits.
I know that up know I have spent some time in discussing the rider, but I would like to introduce another aspect of Grey's training that of the horse. We introduced into the training TPR monitoring , that is temp,pulse and resperation, this form of science was invented by a Prof Bobilov of the Russian State University, vetinary sciences to measure horses in condition and exercise. When we first recieved horses their TPR readings were taken and recorded, and were taken at intervals throughout work, from these readings we could see if horses were getting sufficiant exercise, to bring them up to condition for opps. Depending on the exercise and condition, that animals were used, their TPR readings should come down to the normal as quickly as possible, the quicker they came down the fitter the horse was becoming, the slower it was, either the horse required more work or there was some other problem ie digestive, teeth had sharp edges and was not eating properly, or sickness, equine billary caused by ticks, african horse sickness, tsete fly bites prevalant along the Mozambique border for which there is no cure. Or in some case just pure bad horse management, by the rider, that could be rectified, he either sorted himself out or he was gone.
All horses either returning to barracks, or base camps were fully inspected by the Vets, only they could allow a horse to contue with opps, or they ordered horses to be back loaded to the barracks, where we had a complete vetinary setup, including opperating tables. We only lost a couple of horses in actual combat, in whole time that we were opperational, although we had some wounded they were patched up and returned to duty without any ill effects, as was related in another thread there were more vets than medics, a fully trained horse was worth its weight in gold.

Roy