Philip Sauerlender recently shared some photographs of the legendary Ft. Riley slide. These photographs illustrate two style of going down the slide which are radically different from one another. Pretty interesting change in method.
Here's the new method:
Here's the old method:
I thought this would be an interesting topic, and Philip graciously agreed to allow me to put the photos up. I hope that he and others will share their observations. This came about as I had emailed an old J.R. Williams cartoon of riders going down a steep hill. Williams was an experienced cowhand, and drew his riders accurately. He dipicted a style more like that in that of the old style, his cartoon was drawn in 1945.
Interesting photos.
In "Riding and schooling Horses" BY Lt.Col Harry Chamberlin(1935) ...U.S.Army..graduate of Fort Riley etc.., there is a similar photo to "the new method"..possibly in the same location. Plate XL..opposite page 57.In this case the rider is in the forward seat but looks far more relaxed and comfortable.
Though I'd through this in just in case anyone has the book.
Not sure if the riders are British or American!.
JOHN.M.
Great pictures. The "new" style illustrates a rider who is in a much better position to stay with his mount - particularly when arriving at the bottom of this hair raising slide. He would be balanced over his horse's center of gravity and ready for a quick turn or leap forward. (in my humble opinion as a former eventer!)
"Experience has shown that for descending very steep slopes a position of the rider's body nearly parallel to the horse's neck is easier for both horse and rider, and safer. Since adopting this method, very few students have suffered strained muscles from work on slides." (Appendix "F" to Annual Report of the Cavalry School 1924)
The photos were from the 1927 edition the the Cavalry School Annual "The Rasp"
I did a little research into this last night and the results were rather surprising.
The earliest picture I could find of U.S. Cavalrymen using the new position was in the 1923 "Rasp." The 1922 edition shows students using the earlier version.
According to "The Caprilli Papers, Principles of Outdoor Equitation," edited by Maj. Piero Santini the inventor of the modern "forwawrd seat" riding position (Caprilli) started using the second method about 1907. After describing the earlier version, the editor inserts the following note:
"Caprilli subsequently modified these instructions by requiring that the body be brought well forward even when going down the steepest inclines, rightly claiming that, by relieving the lumbar vertebrae of all weight even in this case, the horse could use his hind feet as brakes."
I have to say that, to my eye, the new position is not the one I would instinctively use. That isn't to say it isn't correct (I haven't tried it), but it fights my instinctive position somehow. That probably says more about me than anything else.
Actually, my first option would have been to ride around and look for another way down. It's off topic, but I can't help recalling an old skit from the now forgotten "Tim Conway Show". Tim plays a Japanese pilot receiving Kamikazee mission instructions from Harvey Korman. Both speak in make up Japanese. Korman keeps pointing a paper mockup of an airplane down towards a ship, Conway keeps getting up from the class with a question, and moving the airplane to fly over the ship. Difficult to describe, but hillariously executed.
John, is there any text on this method in the Chamberlin book?
Phlip, interesting comments. The one about student muscle pulls surprises me, the one about stress on the horse makes sense but I'm surprised that student strains were part of the observations. In the new position a rider would clearly be in better shape once the horse hit the bottom.
Pat, unfortunately nothing in the text; just the caption.."..and note forward seat and brace against stirrups, buttocks pushed well to the rear". The rider looks in a better and more relaxed posture than the rider in the "new method" photo that introduced this discussion. That rider appears, to me, a little stiff, with a rounded back..still he's got guts!.
In "Horse Sense and Horsemanship of Today", by the English Cavalry Officer, Geoffrey Brooke first published in 1924 there is a photo of an Italian cavalry man descending a smooth sheer slope. Again , in this book there is nothing in the text but the caption states:-..."This picture demonstrates the use made of the hind legs in descending a steep slope. The rider keeps the forehand straight with the reins , and the hindquarters under control with his legs. The Italians have discarded the original practice of sitting back under the above conditions, as they found it put unnecessary weight on the hind-limbs and the horses grazed their hocks on the rough surface".
John.M.
The Italians are correct. Horses have an incredible instinct for self-preservation and righting themselves when offbalance. If we riders stay out of their way: i.e. give them their head, stay over their center of gravity and off their back, it is amazing what they can negotiate in spite of their rider. The advent of "motion" pictures helped horsemen enormously to rethink proper position.
I'm bumping this up due to a related thread. There's another thread on this topic, which I haven't located yet, which includes Philip's original photos, which no longer come up on this old one. I'll fold that one into here when I find it.
For the time being, I've lifted this image of Philip's, which gives an interesting look at GI equine activities, including the slide.
The two pictures do not come up for me (don't know why), but I have read the comments and wish to ask a question here. I have been taught that if you get forward, the horse goes to their forehand (your weight helping to cause this) and they do not enguage their hind quarters. Even going down hill, nothing like that slide, one needs to sit up, use leg and enguage the hind quarters to come under the horse. I have found this true in practice and do not understand how leaning forward would be effective. The men in the link Pat posted are not leaning back, but sitting upright which seems to be working well. The one rider that comes off, near the camera, clearly leans forward and is gone. Can someone explain this more clearly for me?
John M wrote:Interesting photos.
In "Riding and schooling Horses" BY Lt.Col Harry Chamberlin(1935) ...U.S.Army..graduate of Fort Riley etc.., there is a similar photo to "the new method"..possibly in the same location. Plate XL..opposite page 57.In this case the rider is in the forward seat but looks far more relaxed and comfortable.
Though I'd through this in just in case anyone has the book.
Not sure if the riders are British or American!.
JOHN.M.
John D Morgan
John, I have that book and there is no plate opposite page 57. Was it his other book perhaps? (I don't have it handy right now)
Pat...that was nine years ago. I have trouble remembering where I put my hat in the morning! I searched and cannot find a similar picture on my computer.
I can't believe you could stay on your horse when you lean forward going down a slide like that. I don't consider myself a very good rider (in the classical sense), but I have riden in a lot of tough terrain and we quite often had to go down river banks like that (the terrain was very similar in SWA) when time was pressing on follow ups.
