From the visual and text evidence I've gathered in web searches and from print, I gather that the Ottoman Turkish cavalry units of the First World War period were equipped largely with German or Austro-Hungarian saddles, saddle bags, bridles, etc. These were either provided to Turkey by their Central Powers allies or were built under license in Turkey.
Can anyone provide references to the contrary? Photos or illustrations would be most helpful.
All the best,
Dan
Ottoman Turk (Great War period) saddles, etc.
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Ralph Lovett
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Dan
That is a great question. I do not remember seeing horse harnessing or saddles at the Turkish Army Museum or at the Turkish Artillery School Museum. I collect the Austro-Hungarian and German WW1 and WW2 artillery saddles and harnessing and have never found any with Ottoman/Turkish marks. While living in former Ottoman parts of the Middle East, I only saw locally built saddles and British UP saddles.
Wish I had an answer for you.
R/
Ralph
That is a great question. I do not remember seeing horse harnessing or saddles at the Turkish Army Museum or at the Turkish Artillery School Museum. I collect the Austro-Hungarian and German WW1 and WW2 artillery saddles and harnessing and have never found any with Ottoman/Turkish marks. While living in former Ottoman parts of the Middle East, I only saw locally built saddles and British UP saddles.
Wish I had an answer for you.
R/
Ralph
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Pat Holscher
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Ottoman cavalry of this period is the subject of a pretty good set of photographs on The Library of Congress's site. I haven't studied the tack in the photos, but it might be revealing at least as to pattern.
One thing to keep in mind is that while the Ottomans did rely on German designs for many thing, they often manufactured it themselves, although not exclusively so by any means.
One thing to keep in mind is that while the Ottomans did rely on German designs for many thing, they often manufactured it themselves, although not exclusively so by any means.
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lazyschnauzer
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- Left-side-horse-tackle.jpg (116.52 KiB) Viewed 31776 times
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- Bridle and horse kit.jpg (141.83 KiB) Viewed 31776 times
In the third photo (pre-war), I can see what looks like it might be a German bridle. Maybe. Can't see the saddle at all. The stirrups might be German. In the first and second photos I can see a German saddle wallet just ahead of the rider. Most of the saddle is obscured. The bridle might or might not be a German version. Don't see anything else useful.
Do these photos help in any way? Multiple web sources, but I think I did download some from the Library of Congress. I'll re-check.
All the best,
Dan
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lazyschnauzer
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German saddle wallets of various types. The Uhlan one is ersatz I believe and made of cloth.
All the best,
Dan
All the best,
Dan
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lazyschnauzer
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I found one set of files on the Library of Congress web site that may be useful.
These photos were created 1880 to 1893 (so not exactly the right period) and concern the Turkish 1st Lancer regiment.
Some horse equipment looks German (stirrups and the horse wallet on the NCO photo for example). Some does not. No clear view of the saddle.
Your thoughts?
All the best,
Dan
These photos were created 1880 to 1893 (so not exactly the right period) and concern the Turkish 1st Lancer regiment.
Some horse equipment looks German (stirrups and the horse wallet on the NCO photo for example). Some does not. No clear view of the saddle.
Your thoughts?
All the best,
Dan
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Pat Holscher
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Perhaps it is because these are late 19th Century, rather than early 20th Century, but the method carrying the long arm here doesn't strike me as a pattern familiar to German tack. Having said that, I'm not at all familiar with German tack that predated World War One.lazyschnauzer wrote:I found one set of files on the Library of Congress web site that may be useful.
These photos were created 1880 to 1893 (so not exactly the right period) and concern the Turkish 1st Lancer regiment.
Some horse equipment looks German (stirrups and the horse wallet on the NCO photo for example). Some does not. No clear view of the saddle.
Your thoughts?
All the best,
Dan
The Germans heavily favored carrying longarms across the back, and at least post 1898 carbines were designed to be carried in that fashion. They did introduce buckets at least on one occasion, prior to World War Two, but abandoned them again in favor of carrying the carbine slung across the back.
Indeed, I've never seen a boot or scabbard quite like that depicted here.
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lazyschnauzer
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I agree that the rifle bucket or boot is dodgy ca. WW1. I don't intend to make one for the German or Ottoman lancer miniatures.
All the best,
Dan
All the best,
Dan
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Tom Muller
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Guys,lazyschnauzer wrote:I found one set of files on the Library of Congress web site that may be useful.
These photos were created 1880 to 1893 (so not exactly the right period) and concern the Turkish 1st Lancer regiment.
Some horse equipment looks German (stirrups and the horse wallet on the NCO photo for example). Some does not. No clear view of the saddle.
Your thoughts?
All the best,
Dan
note how far back the girth is attached. The older model of the German Armeesattel 89 has the girth attached that far back. This was changed during WWI.
Tom
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Tom Muller
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The bridle and horse kit shown here seems to be German according to the pommel wallets and the carbine boot attached to the off side behind the saddle. Fits in the time frame before WWI.lazyschnauzer wrote: Thanks gentlemen! I don't often post photos on this web site, so had to remember how and trial-and-error my way thru.
In the third photo (pre-war), I can see what looks like it might be a German bridle. Maybe. Can't see the saddle at all. The stirrups might be German. In the first and second photos I can see a German saddle wallet just ahead of the rider. Most of the saddle is obscured. The bridle might or might not be a German version. Don't see anything else useful.
Do these photos help in any way? Multiple web sources, but I think I did download some from the Library of Congress. I'll re-check.
All the best,
Dan
Tom
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lazyschnauzer
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Tom - thanks for the assistance!
All the best,
Dan
All the best,
Dan
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Pat Holscher
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Tom, is that scabbard a German pattern then?
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Tom Muller
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Pat,
yes it is, but just the one hanging behind the saddle, not the type with the carbine (what is it by the way?) lying across the riders leg.
Tom
yes it is, but just the one hanging behind the saddle, not the type with the carbine (what is it by the way?) lying across the riders leg.
Tom
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lazyschnauzer
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Tom - My interest for making this miniature is 1915 - 1917. I'm attaching the best close-ups of the carbine in its boot or holster that I can make using Photoshop. These are from the 1893 photos. All the 1915 - 1917 photos and illustrations of Turkish cavalry that I can find show two versions of Mauser carbines slung across the rider's back and no evidence of boots or holsters.
All the best,
Dan
All the best,
Dan
- carbine-close-up-2-1893.jpg (22.22 KiB) Viewed 31623 times
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lazyschnauzer
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Sometimes while stumbling around the web, you hit the jackpot (?). Maybe...
Could the carbine in the bucket be an M1874 Gras Cavalry Carbine, the third one shown in the attached photo?
Text to go along with the photo.
(Top to bottom) M1874/14 Gras Infantry Rifle, cal. 8x51mmR with shortened Model
1874 bayonet, M1874 Gras Artillery Musketoon with M1866 Chassepot bayonet, M1874
Gras Cavalry Carbine, M1874 Gras Foot-Gendarmarie Carbine with Model 1866 Chassepot
bayonet and M1874 Gras Infantry Rifle with Model 1874 bayonet.
This is from http://www.gunsmagazine.com/guns web site.
All the best,
Dan
Could the carbine in the bucket be an M1874 Gras Cavalry Carbine, the third one shown in the attached photo?
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(Top to bottom) M1874/14 Gras Infantry Rifle, cal. 8x51mmR with shortened Model
1874 bayonet, M1874 Gras Artillery Musketoon with M1866 Chassepot bayonet, M1874
Gras Cavalry Carbine, M1874 Gras Foot-Gendarmarie Carbine with Model 1866 Chassepot
bayonet and M1874 Gras Infantry Rifle with Model 1874 bayonet.
This is from http://www.gunsmagazine.com/guns web site.
All the best,
Dan
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Tom Muller
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Dan,
the carbine boot was used by the Schutztruppe in the Herero war in South West Africa prior to WWI. All the photos I have seen so far show the carbine or rifle slung across the back in the WWI period. I'm at work now, but I'll check at home if I can find any reference to the bucket use between 1915-1917 in one of my books.
I can't say what type of rifle that could be and my knowledge on Turkish Cavalry is very limited, sorry.
Tom
the carbine boot was used by the Schutztruppe in the Herero war in South West Africa prior to WWI. All the photos I have seen so far show the carbine or rifle slung across the back in the WWI period. I'm at work now, but I'll check at home if I can find any reference to the bucket use between 1915-1917 in one of my books.
I can't say what type of rifle that could be and my knowledge on Turkish Cavalry is very limited, sorry.
Tom
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lazyschnauzer
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I have photos of a rifle or carbine bucket in German colonial service. Some examples attached.
Next a photo of a group of Uhlans [not colonial service] on patrol ca. 1914. This shows the rifle boot clearly.
Fortunately the 1893 rifle shown is not part of my model-making, so not knowing the make and model is not a problem for me.
All the best,
Dan
Next a photo of a group of Uhlans [not colonial service] on patrol ca. 1914. This shows the rifle boot clearly.
Fortunately the 1893 rifle shown is not part of my model-making, so not knowing the make and model is not a problem for me.
All the best,
Dan
- German Camel Troops in line.jpg (116.24 KiB) Viewed 31600 times
- Schutztruppe.jpg (85.58 KiB) Viewed 31600 times
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- Mounted patrol.jpg (638.66 KiB) Viewed 31600 times