Die Gebirgstragtiere der Bundeswehr

Locked
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Great blog item by Lou on Bundeswehr pack unit.

http://horsesoldier.wordpress.com/2009/ ... undeswehr/


Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
Reiter
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:17 am
Last Name: --
Location: Uvurkhangai/Mongolia

Here a foto of mounted Bundeswehrsoldaten.
Eight soldiers were educated in military-riding in the "Ausbildungszenturm für Tragtierwesen Bad Reichenhall".

Horrido!

Nicole
User avatar
FtValleyPS
Society Member
Posts: 407
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:03 pm
Last Name: Nelson
Location: Colorado, U.S.

Society Member

Donation 5th

Ausgezeichnet!
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Reiter wrote:Here a foto of mounted Bundeswehrsoldaten.
Eight soldiers were educated in military-riding in the "Ausbildungszenturm für Tragtierwesen Bad Reichenhall".

Horrido!

Nicole

The rifles are in buckets, which is a surprise. Is this the standard current method of carry?
Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
Reiter
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:17 am
Last Name: --
Location: Uvurkhangai/Mongolia

The rifles are in buckets, which is a surprise. Is this the standard current method of carry?
Hello,

seems to be - I have no more fotos of mounted Bundeswehr-soldiers and have never heard of such any more. This article was written in the year 2000.

Horrido!

Nicole
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Reiter wrote:
The rifles are in buckets, which is a surprise. Is this the standard current method of carry?
Hello,

seems to be - I have no more fotos of mounted Bundeswehr-soldiers and have never heard of such any more. This article was written in the year 2000.

Horrido!

Nicole
We have a few more linked in of Mountain troops. I'll bump them up when I get a chance.

In those photos, the troops have their rifles slung across their chests. This would reflect what is regarded as the best method of carry, for soldiers (that is, on the person). Here, of course, we see buckets, which is a surprise. The German army abandoned buckets in WWI in favor of carrying the rifle across the back, and then reintroduced the bucket after WWI, only to abandon it again early in WWII. So here we see that, perhaps for some uses (and keeping in mind the quite limited number of troops in the German army today) the bucket has returned. It appears to be a purpose built buckets.
Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
User avatar
Tom Muller
Society Member
Posts: 745
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 12:14 am
Last Name: Muller
Location: Germany

Society Member

Pat Holscher wrote:
Reiter wrote:
The rifles are in buckets, which is a surprise. Is this the standard current method of carry?
Hello,

seems to be - I have no more fotos of mounted Bundeswehr-soldiers and have never heard of such any more. This article was written in the year 2000.

Horrido!

Nicole
We have a few more linked in of Mountain troops. I'll bump them up when I get a chance.

In those photos, the troops have their rifles slung across their chests. This would reflect what is regarded as the best method of carry, for soldiers (that is, on the person). Here, of course, we see buckets, which is a surprise. The German army abandoned buckets in WWI in favor of carrying the rifle across the back, and then reintroduced the bucket after WWI, only to abandon it again early in WWII. So here we see that, perhaps for some uses (and keeping in mind the quite limited number of troops in the German army today) the bucket has returned. It appears to be a purpose built buckets.

I guess I'm repeating myself, but why put a rifle in a bucket? The only way to carry it is in your hand with no sling attached. Only this way permits you to handle it in any possible situation and in the worst case you won't look longingly at your horse running off with your gat and the terrs having a go at you and your mates. To me it sometimes seems that especially in Germany the horizon ends at the borders and experiences other countries have made will be ignored, Who has to pay the price for this, well the trooper on the ground!
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Pat Holscher wrote:
Reiter wrote:Here a foto of mounted Bundeswehrsoldaten.
Eight soldiers were educated in military-riding in the "Ausbildungszenturm für Tragtierwesen Bad Reichenhall".

Horrido!

Nicole

The rifles are in buckets, which is a surprise. Is this the standard current method of carry?

Here's the photos I was referencing here earlier, which Pat Kiser put up in a thread on German mountain troops (which I've just bumped up). As we can see, the method of carry here is different.
Heeresbergführer wrote:Grüß Di' alte Mulis,

Here are some more photos of the current Bundeswehr Gebirgsjägers both mounted on Haflingers and using Mulis.

Image
Image
Image
Image

Muli und Hafi vor!



Heeresbergführer Kiser
Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
Reiter
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:17 am
Last Name: --
Location: Uvurkhangai/Mongolia

On weekend I have told with an Tragtierführer of the Gebirgsjäger der Bundeswehr and he said, that the Tragtiereinheiten have no own German equipment (Tragesattel) and use Italian and Austrian equipment for that.
And when I look at the picture of the mounted Bundeswehrsoldaten and on the first Kiser-foto saddles, bridles and pads are usually civilian.
Mounted Bundeswehr-soldiers are only small exception.

Horrido!

Nicole
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Reiter wrote:On weekend I have told with an Tragtierführer of the Gebirgsjäger der Bundeswehr and he said, that the Tragtiereinheiten have no own German equipment (Tragesattel) and use Italian and Austrian equipment for that.
And when I look at the picture of the mounted Bundeswehrsoldaten and on the first Kiser-foto saddles, bridles and pads are usually civilian.
Mounted Bundeswehr-soldiers are only small exception.

Horrido!

Nicole
It's funny, but in some of these small use type of items, it seems we've come closer to NATO standardization than we every have with the items used in large numbers. I suppose, in that context, German use of Italian saddles sort of sets the NATO standard.

It's nice to see this capability preserved. Recent conflicts have shown it's still useful, and retaining some ability to do this is a good thing.
Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
mnhorse
Posts: 457
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:31 am
Last Name: Resseman
Location: USA

Donation 1st

As we are finding, the horse has never really been completely replaced. Popular histories of WWII tend to declare that the mechanized German Army "crushed" the cavalry of countires like Poland, forever replacing the horse. I now see, thanks to this forum, that all combatants in WWII relied on horsepower some of the time.
Was the emphasis on mechanization (in the media) part of the effort to show the "power" of the the Allies, or the mercilessness of the of the Axis?

Getting back to the present post, I have a few questions. In light of current events I see why the Bundeswehr would want to have soldiers familiar with horses.
During my two years in Bavaria, i saw plenty of the Haflinger type horses, so I know where they are obtained. The mules (muli/maulesel) is another matter. I know things change over time, but I never saw a single mule in any part of Germany. Are these nice sturdy mules being bred in Germany or are they imported?

The small tracked vehicle is also interesting, can anyone identify it? Seems almost as out of place in todays military as the horses and mules.
Richard
Lead.....Follow....or get out of the way.
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

mnhorse wrote:As we are finding, the horse has never really been completely replaced. Popular histories of WWII tend to declare that the mechanized German Army "crushed" the cavalry of countires like Poland, forever replacing the horse. I now see, thanks to this forum, that all combatants in WWII relied on horsepower some of the time.
Was the emphasis on mechanization (in the media) part of the effort to show the "power" of the the Allies, or the mercilessness of the of the Axis?
I think there's a mix of answers to that question.

To a very large degree, our mental image of the German Army during WWII comes from German propaganda films taken early in WWII, and to a smaller extent continuing on during the war. As others here have explored, the Nazis were very conscious of their photographic and cinematic image. From the invasion of Poland up through the invasion of the Soviet Union, German newsreel footage emphasized motorized weapons and aircraft. This was an intentional effort to overawe Germany's opponents and to impress the German populace with how modern the German military was. It was never accurate. It was impressive, however, and it has continued to shape how the German military is viewed today. US tank and Soviet tank production dwarfed German armor production, for example, but you'd never realize that based on any film footage, either modern movie footage or period film footage.

On the depiction of the Allies, the Western Allies really were heavily motorized, with the most important motorized vehicle being the 6x6 truck. The US Sherman, which has been increasingly criticized as time has gone on, did have the virtue of being able to be manufactured in huge numbers, so there really were a lot of them. They ended up being used by ever Allied army. The British were a bit unique in the 1939-1940 time frame in being fairly well motorized as well, which continued to increase with American lend lease. We don't see too much in the way of Soviet newsreels, but they did film some of their cavalry in action, which was probably because it was directed at a Soviet domestic audience which still had a popular recollection of horse cavalry, which the Soviets were using.
mnhorse wrote: The small tracked vehicle is also interesting, can anyone identify it? Seems almost as out of place in todays military as the horses and mules.
Richard
Those are odd. I think they might be identified in the other thread that these photos are in. Most examples of really light armor like this fail in combat. I don't know of a single example that has been really truly successful.
Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
jan
Society Member
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2006 3:54 am
Location: Belgium

Society Member

It seems that the Bundeswehr is also using the Swiss army "Wägeli" infantry carts, second Kiserphoto, perhaps also the Swiss Packsattels ?

Some nice photos of the Swiss equipment in 2008 used by a Train unit in the mountains,
http://www.beatenbergbilder.ch/home/rep ... enberg.htm

The Swiss systhem seems to be an example for Germany, Italie, Austria and the US. Also intresting is that the horses are in civilian care and are called up once a year for 3 to 4 weeks service and in case of disasters when motor vehicles can not be used.

Jan
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

jan wrote:It seems that the Bundeswehr is also using the Swiss army "Wägeli" infantry carts, second Kiserphoto, perhaps also the Swiss Packsattels ?

Some nice photos of the Swiss equipment in 2008 used by a Train unit in the mountains,
http://www.beatenbergbilder.ch/home/rep ... enberg.htm

The Swiss systhem seems to be an example for Germany, Italie, Austria and the US. Also intresting is that the horses are in civilian care and are called up once a year for 3 to 4 weeks service and in case of disasters when motor vehicles can not be used.

Jan
Nice link.

I wonder if this type of cart is a regional pattern used by all the Alpine armies in similiar variants?

Where's our cart expert?
Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
Kelton Oliver
Past Society Member
Past Society Member
Posts: 955
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 1:58 pm
Location: USA

Society Member

Inactive Society Member

The Halflinger is a good example of a breed which is reasonably suitable for both draft and riding work. I had a neighbor in Oklahoma who had Halflingers and I rode them sometimes. They certainly aren't the kind of athlete that a Thoroughbred is, but they have a comfortable gait and can go all day. They can jump well enough to clear small obstacles on the trail and don't startle easily.
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
User avatar
Pat Holscher
Website Admin
Posts: 26967
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher
Location: USA
Contact:

Society Member

Donor Palm Leaf

Pat

Animadvertistine, ubicumque stes, fumum recta in faciem ferri?
Locked