DI Examples

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dallas
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Tue Sep 06, 2005 8:15 pm

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1st Cavalry Division Commander & Staff. Most of these 1st Cav. Div. DIs were not approved by the Institute of Heraldry but were worn by the units. This one was made by N.S. Meyer of New York and is a pinback (P/B)

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1st Cav. Div. HQ Troop. This one was made by Amcraft (American Metal Crafts Co.) and is a P/B. Another version was made by Meyer and has a black bend instead of the blue.

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1st Cav. Brigade Staff. Note the odd horse head. This DI was supplied by A.H. Dondero of Washington, D.C. who was a major supplier of early DIs. It is a P/B.

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2nd Cav. Bde. Staff This is the same design as the 1st Bde. but with a different color horse head. This was made by Meyer and is a S/B. As with most of the 1st Cav. Div. pieces, it was not approved but was worn.
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2nd Cav. Bde. Staff This one has a different shaped horse head which is also a different color. It is a S/B and is not hallmarked.
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1st Signal Troop Was worn by Signal Corps personnel attached to the 1st Cav. Div. It was made by Meyer and is a S/B
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1st Veterinary Troop Worn by personnel charged with care of the Division's animals. It was made by Meyer and is a S/B.

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1st Cav. Bde. Staff. This is another version of the above insignia and was made by Meyer. It has a different horse head and is a screwback (S/B).

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1st Ordnance Troop This is a P/B and was supplied by Dondero. Again it was not approved but worn.
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16th Quartermaster Squadron This design was approved by the Institute of Heraldry. It is a P/B and was supplied by A.H. Dondero.
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2nd Cavalry Division Staff. Unlike the 1st Cavalry Div., the 2nd only had one DI for all Divisional HQ and staff personnel. This piece was made by Meyer and is a P/B
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23rd Cavalry Division Staff. Again one DI for HQ and staff personnel. The 23rd was a National Guard Division and the DI bears the crest of the Alabama N.G. The piece was supplied by Dondero and is S/B.
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51st Cavalry Brigade HQ This unit consisted of personnel from both New Jersey and New York NG. This piece is a S/B and was made by Minero-Newcome of New York. It was approved on 10 October 1930.
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52nd Cavalry Brigade HQ The 52nd was part of the Pennsylvania NG. This DI is one of the most striking pieces. It is not hallmarked and is a S/B. It was approved on 28 June 1930.
Image53rd Cavalry Brigade HQ This Bde was part of the Wisconsin NG. The DI was made by Whitehead & Hoag and is a S/B. It was approved on 13 February 1930.
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54th Cavalry Brigade HQ The 54th was part of the Ohio NG. This piece was made by Meyer and is a S/B. It was approved on 27 June 1930.
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Another version of the 54th Cav. Bde. This piece was also made by Meyer and is a S/B. It was not approved but worn by troops.
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56th Cavalry Brigade HQ The 56th was part of the Texas NG. The DI was made by Gemsco and is a S/B. It was not approved by worn.
Last edited by Pat Holscher on Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:41 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">52nd Cavalry Brigade HQ The 52nd was part of the Pennsylvania NG. This DI is one of the most striking pieces. It is not hallmarked and is a S/B. It was approved on 28 June 1930.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

They were the First City Troop of Philadelphia (which still exists).
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dallas
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:10 pm

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1st Cav. Regt. This piece was approved on 28 January 1924 and hasn't changed much since. The 1st Cavalry was originally the 1st Dragoons. The DI is a S/B and is not hallmarked.
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2nd Cav. Regt. This is the first version of this piece. It was approved on 16 March 1923. It was supplied by Dondero and is a S/B.
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2nd Cav. Regt. This is the second version. It was approved on 28 April 1924. The 2nd Cav. was originally the 2nd Dragoons. This piece was also supplied by Dondero and is a S/B
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2nd Cav. Regt. This is the third version. It was supplied by Uris in New York but was made by J.R. Gaunt in London. It was not approved but was worn by the troops.
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2nd Cav. Regt. Here is the fourth version. It was approved on 29 November 1930. It has more pronounced star points. It is a S/B and is not hallmarked.
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2nd Cav. Regt. This version is made in sterling and is a P/B.
Last edited by Pat Holscher on Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Beck
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:55 pm

A couple of weeks ago I saw on eBay Marine versions of DIs for the 4th Marines in China. Only these DIs they wore on the fur hat and not the lapels or collars.

Beck
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:02 am

Dallas;

Are all the "approved/not approved" that you mention in reference to the Institute of Heraldry, or to another body that determined what could or could not be worn as "uniform?" I can see the rules of heraldry making the difference in approval for the two examples of the 54th Cav. Bde. badge--the blue field behind the silver arrows is what makes the arrows visible/recognizable from a distance--the chief aim of heraldry. The example without the blue field places the silver/white (heraldry considers silver and white as the same thing) on yellow/gold (again, considered the same thing)--this placing of a "metal on a metal" breaks the Rule of Tincture, the primary rule governing heraldic design. Same with the white star on the yellow background for the 56th Cavalry Brigade HQ DI.

The Rule of Tincture, btw, is still invoked wherever information has to be immediately recognizable at a distance--for example, you'll never see a black and red license plate or highway sign; always a combination of white or yellow (the "metals") with red, green, blue, black, etc. (the "colours").

Tim
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 10:09 am

Was/is the Institute of Heraldry a military department to oversee the design miltary badges, or were/are they a civil government body? I know the Canadian Heraldic Authority is outside the military, but headed by our Governor General, the Queen's represenative in our parliament (who is also Commander in Chief of the Canadian Armed Forces, but that appears to be the only link between our Military and our Heralds).


Tim
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:36 pm

Tim: The Institute of Heraldry is part of the U.S. Army and is responsible for designing or approving the design of insignia. The ones that I have noted as approved were approved by the IOH. Some of the DIs were probably designed, purchased and worn by the units without being submitted to the IOH. In most cases the design reflects some of the unit's history such as a cactus for Mexican Border service or a fleur- de-lis for WWI service in France. Some of them may not adhere too closely to the rules of heraldry.
Dallas
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:43 pm

Originally posted by Beck
A couple of weeks ago I saw on eBay Marine versions of DIs for the 4th Marines in China. Only these DIs they wore on the fur hat and not the lapels or collars.

Beck
By off chance, did you save the link to that one?

Pat
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dallas
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:43 pm

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3rd Cav. Regt. This regiment was originally the Regt of Mounted Rifles, hence the motto BRAVE RIFLES. This piece was approved on 30 November 1926. It was supplied by A.H. Dondero and is a S/B.
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4th Cav. Regt. This DI was approved on 19 January 1923 and is a S/B with no hallmark.
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5th Cav. Regt. Here is another DI that hasn't changed much over the years. It was approved on 26 March 1923. It is a S/B and is not hallmarked.
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6th Cav. Regt. The unicorn is superimposed over the shield on this DI. It was approved on 5 January 1923. It was supplied by Dondero and is a S/B.
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7th Cav. Regt. The only known original approved piece is the Institute of Heraldry sample. This DI is in the IOH file but there is no letter of approval. However it is the earliest piece known to have been worn beginning in 1924. The arm and saber are superimposed on the horseshoe. It was supplied by Dondero and is a P/B
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7th Cav. Regt. Here is a later piece with the arm and saber stamped integrally with the horseshoe. It is a Meyer S/B.

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8th Cav. Regt. This regiment wore two DIs with the horses facing each other. They were approved on 10 January 1927. Here is the left piece which was made by Meyer and is a S/B.
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8th Cav. Regt. Here is the right hand piece of the set. It was also made by Meyer and is a S/B.
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9th Cav. Regt. Here is the original DI for this unit. It was approved on 23 May 1923 but was not worn very long, being cancelled on 22 October 1925. It is not hallmarked but is attributed to Dondero and is a S/B.
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9th Cav. Regt. This is the later version of the 9th DI. It was approved on 31 December 1925 and features a horse and rider superimposed on the blue fort. It was supplied by Dondero and is a S/B.
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10th Cav. Regt. The 10th also wore two facing DIs. Here is the left one. They were approved on 14 December 1923. This piece is not hallmarked and is a S/B.
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10th Cav. Regt. Here is the right hand piece. It also is not hallmarked and is a S/B. It is well used. I have better examples but these two are fairly well matched

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11th Cav. Regt. This DI was made before approval was received on 6 January 1925 but authorization was given on 13 February 1925 to be worn until supplies were exhausted. It was supplied by Dondero and is a S/B. The torse on this piece is black and gold while the approved torse is gold and black.
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12th Cav. Regt. This is the original DI approved on 16 October 1923. It is larger than the subsequent ones. It was supplied by Dondero and is a P/B.
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12th Cav. Regt. This is the second version of the 12th. It features a raised cactus on a curved shield and was made by the famous Philadelphia firm of Bailey, Banks and Biddle and is a P/B. It was never approved but was worn by troops. Later versions of this DI were of the same style but were flat.
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13th Cav. Regt. Here is the first version of the 13th. It was approved on 5 April 1923 and has a torse on the bottom. It is not hallmarked and was originally a P/B but has been converted to a S/B, possibly for wear on a campaign hat.
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13th Cav. Regt. This is the later version without the torse. It was supplied by Dondero and is a S/B.
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14th Cav. Regt. This regiment wore a different type of DI, being a ribbon worn on the left epaulette. There are several types of ribbons with different shades, weaves and sizes. I have two different types. In the 1930s, the ribbon was made of metal attached with two screwposts.

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15th Cav. Regt. This DI was approved on 5 June 1935. It is not hallmarked and is a S/B.
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17th Cav. Regt. This piece was approved on 23 March 1939. It was made by Meyer and is a S/B. The 16th Cav. Regt. was not activated until 15 June 1942 and their DI was not approved until 6 January 1959 so it was not active in the 1920-30 period.
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26th Cav. Regt. The 26th Regiment (Philippine Scouts) was another unit with two facing DIs. They were approved on 6 February 1924. Here is the left one. It was made by Meyer and is a S/B.
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26th Cav. Regt. Here is the right hand piece. It was also made by Meyer and is a S/B.

The only other Regular Army Cavalry Regiment to have a DI was the 27th which was formed in 1943 as part of the 2nd Cavalry Division. This unit had an unapproved DI which was embroidered cloth. Very few of the troops actually had these DIs. I have talked with members of the unit and they had never seen one.
Last edited by Pat Holscher on Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 8:45 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dallas</i>
<br />Tim: The Institute of Heraldry is part of the U.S. Army and is responsible for designing or approving the design of insignia. The ones that I have noted as approved were approved by the IOH. Some of the DIs were probably designed, purchased and worn by the units without being submitted to the IOH. In most cases the design reflects some of the unit's history such as a cactus for Mexican Border service or a fleur- de-lis for WWI service in France. Some of them may not adhere too closely to the rules of heraldry.
Dallas
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

http://www.qmfound.com/army_heraldry.htm

Pat
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 9:21 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
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14th Cav. Regt. This regiment wore a different type of DI, being a ribbon worn on the left epaulette. There are several types of ribbons with different shades, weaves and sizes. I have two different types. In the 1930s, the ribbon was made of metal attached with two screwposts.
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Is this type of DI unique to this unit? Did any infantry, or other, units wear this type?

Pat
Last edited by Pat Holscher on Tue Mar 04, 2008 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:30 am

Dallas,
Thanks for posting these it is great to see them for real.
Pat,
Can these be kept as an easily accessed archive?

Dušan
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dallas
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:59 am

Pat: Other units also wore a ribbon. The 306th Cav., the 318th Cav. and the 4th Infantry also wore them. I will show the other cavalry ribbons eventually.

I need to correct an error in a previous statement. I said that the 27th Cav. Regt DI was not approved. In going back through my records, I see that the distinctive insignia for the 27th was approved by letter SPQRD 421 27th Cavalry, the Office of the Quartermaster General, 1 March 1943.
Dallas
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 10:49 am

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Trooper</i>
<br />Dallas,
Thanks for posting these it is great to see them for real.
Pat,
Can these be kept as an easily accessed archive?

Dušan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I think that's an excellent idea - with Dallas' permission, I will collect these together for a feature item.

There is a finite amount of database space for the forum, and old items will eventually disappear. We're reaching the point now where some of the really classic 'gold' from early years will have to be pulled off and put into a special archive.

Todd
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 11:16 am

Dallas: I have seen another version of the 17th Cav where the wings are a bit more spread (do not come inside the spur) and the spur actually looks like a spur. I was under the impression that it may have been the early version, but don't know for sure. I have also seen it where the area of the wings that are inside the spur are clear and have no feathers. Each reference says that they were offical. Is there any way to date these as to issue??

Jim
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dallas
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:20 pm

Jim: The DI pictured is the only approved specimen from the pre-WWII era. The American Society of Military Insignia Collectors (ASMIC) Cavalry Catalog lists 11 different specimens with most of them being unapproved versions from the Vietnam era. There are two versions with the wings inside the spur being clear, without feathers. One of these is an approved version, being approved on 2 September 1966. None of the ASMIC DIs show the wings entirely outside of the spur. In addition to the 11 versions mentioned above, there are 13 others, most of them for different troops or squadrons of the 17th Air Cavalry in Vietnam. Jim Sawicki, in his book CAVALRY REGIMENTS OF THE U.S. ARMY, lists only the 2 September approval of the DI.
Dallas
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:55 pm

Here are a few more. I noticed after the scan that a couple duplicate ones Dallas already put up. I do not know much about DIs, but always liked them and pick them up when I can and the prices are reasonable.

Left to right fromt the top:

2nd cav? Dallas, can you tell more? note stipple finish back. No hallmark.

Not sure about the next one.

On the right side are examples of the brass and the sterling Cavalry School DIs. All are pin backs. one of the brass ones is hallmarked with something that begins with NS, and says New York, but is blotted out by the pin attachment

I believe that the pin back in the next row that says ''Build Well'' is the CRTC itr is marked sterling, but has no hallmark.

On the left of the next row is a screw-back DI for the 16th QM Sqd, if I am not mistaken. It is hallmarked Meyer.

Next is a screw-back for the 1st Cav, without hallmark, followed by a complete set of the 112th Cav, of which the SB is not marked, and the PBs have a sort of herringbone back with a cartouche enclosing what apepars to be ''2-F''

The last is a SB of the 5th, with no hallmark.





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Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:20 pm

Dallas:

I have a clutch-back version of the 17th cav winged spur DI that has the wings and spur applied as a separate piece over the enameled background. It is marked E-25, made in USA. It that unusual or just another varient?

J
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:05 pm

By the way, there's more to go. I just haven't put them all up yet.

Pat
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:03 pm

Joe: I don't see a 2nd Cav piece on your layout. I don't know what the next one with the horseshoe and hand is. The Cav. School piece with the N.S. and New York is N.S. Meyer, New York. The sterling acorn is indeed the CRTC. I will put a couple of them up later. The one with the packmule and wheel is the 16th QM Sqdn. I have already put it up. I have a couple of the 112th with the 2-F hallmark. Someplace I have a chart showing the identities of the makers using the number & letter mark. I will have to locate it. The 17th with the superimposed wing and spur is probably the 17A4 (ASMIC #) that was approved by IOH on 2 Sept. 1966.
Dallas
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