Frontier Army Gatling use

[Pat Holscher]

I saw a film on TV the other day featuring a Gatling gun in use against Indians. Gatlings show up a fair amount in film, and I know the Army had then at least on Frontier posts, but outside of their use in the Spanish American War, I can't think of an actual example of their being used in the field in the 19th Century U.S. Army.

Are there any others?

[Tom Muller]

I got a DVD called "Wyoming", where the Cavalry use a Gattling gun against a group of renegade Indians near Casper in the 1890's.

Tom

[Pat Holscher]

I got a DVD called "Wyoming", where the Cavalry use a Gattling gun against a group of renegade Indians near Casper in the 1890's.

Tom

Wow. I'll have to look for that. One of those films that sounds like a hoot to watch as it will be so far off the mark.

[Tom Muller]

Pat,

I advise you not to do that! There is a dubious lawyer involved as well !

Cheers

Tom

[JV Puleo]

Pat... it has to be a hoot. I just looked it up on wiki... it takes place in 1890 and one of the characters is GA Custer! Wow... someone slept through history.
Happy New Year
jp

[wkambic]

Lawyers & Holly weird screen writers are nothing if not creative!!!

[Trooper]

Mention of GA Custer recalls that he refused the offer to take a Gatling (s?) on the final approach to LBH.
The gun(s?) had been slow and often left behind the Montana column (despite heroic efforts to keep up) on the outward march and GAC didn't want to be slowed when he was finally allowed off the leash.
Much time could be wasted in speculating what, if any, difference it would have made to the outcome at LBH if the 7th. had taken a Gatling (s?)

[browerpatch]

Mention of GA Custer recalls that he refused the offer to take a Gatling (s?) on the final approach to LBH.
The gun(s?) had been slow and often left behind the Montana column (despite heroic efforts to keep up) on the outward march and GAC didn't want to be slowed when he was finally allowed off the leash.
Much time could be wasted in speculating what, if any, difference it would have made to the outcome at LBH if the 7th. had taken a Gatling (s?)

The Gatling he declined to take is/was part of a collection held by the late Jack Warner, and displayed at the North River Yacht Club in Tuscaloosa, Al. I don't know if it's still there or not, as much of the collection, including a major collection of American paintings, was broken up and sold by his heirs after his death.

[Pat Holscher]

Mention of GA Custer recalls that he refused the offer to take a Gatling (s?) on the final approach to LBH.
The gun(s?) had been slow and often left behind the Montana column (despite heroic efforts to keep up) on the outward march and GAC didn't want to be slowed when he was finally allowed off the leash.
Much time could be wasted in speculating what, if any, difference it would have made to the outcome at LBH if the 7th. had taken a Gatling (s?)

Quite a bit of speculation has been made of that, but as a trailed weapon, in difficult terrain, I doubt it could have kept up with Custer's column, and even if it had made it that far, I doubt it could have been deployed. Just too darned slow.

If I recall correctly, the British Army packed their Gatlings during the Boer War (by which time it was quite obsolete) but I may be recalling that incorrectly. Packing it would have been a lot faster.

[Rick Throckmorton]

Pat,
A half-section of Gatlings were used at the Sand Hill Fight against a group of Southern Cheyennes, near Fort Reno/Darlington Agency in Oklahoma, in 1874. The site of the fight was only two miles from the actual post of Fort Reno, so it wasn't much of a stretch to get the guns out there.

Lots of history there. Fort Reno/Darlington Agency was also the starting point of the Dull Knife Outbreak of 1878. I have always resented the various story lines and portrayals of this bit of history. Granted, it was not the Black Hills of Dakota, but it was NOT the desert wasteland as so many historical writers portray it to be, or as pictured in "Cheyenne Autumn". I think the Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho should feel insulted by these portrayals of their homelands (and mine ). Of course this is another subject. We all know after researching various elements of our interests, that reality is a far stretch from how many historical incidents are portrayed. Perhaps we need to start a thread on that.

By the way, the Cheyenne Arapaho have there own tribal website. It is fairly interesting,but has an historical photograph section, with some interesting photos.
Rick T

[Pat Holscher]

Pat... it has to be a hoot. I just looked it up on wiki... it takes place in 1890 and one of the characters is GA Custer! Wow... someone slept through history.
Happy New Year
jp

That would be, um. . . amazing.

Casper was founded in 1890, so at least a sort of town was here (but only sort of, it was really tiny).

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,

I advise you not to do that! There is a dubious lawyer involved as well !

Cheers

Tom

Dubious lawyers were sort of stock characters in Westerns at one time, and actually not without reason. The second half of the 19th Century was one of the low points of American law. That's actually what caused the American Bar Association to come about, as originally it was a lawyer based self reform movement, campaigning for stricter professional standards. It was very conservative for many years in fact, which is surprising when you look at the organization today. Arguably, it's one of those organizations that was so successful in its significant era that it made itself irrelevant.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,
A half-section of Gatlings were used at the Sand Hill Fight against a group of Southern Cheyennes, near Fort Reno/Darlington Agency in Oklahoma, in 1874. The site of the fight was only two miles from the actual post of Fort Reno, so it wasn't much of a stretch to get the guns out there.

Lots of history there. Fort Reno/Darlington Agency was also the starting point of the Dull Knife Outbreak of 1878. I have always resented the various story lines and portrayals of this bit of history. Granted, it was not the Black Hills of Dakota, but it was NOT the desert wasteland as so many historical writers portray it to be, or as pictured in "Cheyenne Autumn". I think the Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho should feel insulted by these portrayals of their homelands (and mine ). Of course this is another subject. We all know after researching various elements of our interests, that reality is a far stretch from how many historical incidents are portrayed. Perhaps we need to start a thread on that.

By the way, the Cheyenne Arapaho have there own tribal website. It is fairly interesting,but has an historical photograph section, with some interesting photos.
Rick T

Very interesting, thanks!

Did the guns prove to be significant in that fight?

On the portrayal of the local, I'm not familiar with this one personally, of course, but I agree with you. Movies in particular have been wildly off the mark in how various areas are portrayed. Authors haven't always done better.

[Couvi]

A brief synopsis of the use of Gatling Guns in the Indian War. It would seem that they were ‘sent’ more than the were ‘used.’

Battles of the Red River War

http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/redriver/battles.html

The first battle of the Red River War came on August 30, 1874, when troops of the Sixth Cavalry and Fifth Infantry under the command of Colonel Nelson A. Miles caught up with a large group of Southern Cheyenne near the Prairie Dog Town Fork of the Red River in what is now southern Armstrong and northern Briscoe counties, Texas. The military records describe the daylong Battle of Red River as a running battle across the rugged canyon lands north and south of the river. Though the Army soldiers numbered some 650 strong with two Gatling guns and a 10-pounder Parrott rifle, the Indians were able to hold them off long enough for the Indian families to safely escape up Tule Canyon and vanish across the Staked Plains.

Miles said, "Gatling guns were useless against Indians as they had the same range as the rifle and the bullets were so small that their impact could not be detected." I had never seen this quote before.

Battle of the Little Bighorn

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... le_Bighorn

Col. John Gibbon's column of six companies (A, B, E, H, I, and K) of the 7th Infantry and four companies (F, G, H, and L) of the 2nd Cavalry marched east from Fort Ellis in western Montana on March 30, to patrol the Yellowstone River. Brig. Gen. George Crook's column of ten companies (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, I, L, and M) of the 3rd Cavalry, five (A, B, D, E, and I) of the 2nd Cavalry, two companies (D and F) of the 4th Infantry, and three companies (C, G, and H) of the9th Infantry, moved north from Fort Fetterman in the Wyoming Territory on May 29, marching toward the Powder River area. Brig. Gen. Alfred Terry's column, including twelve companies (A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, K, L, and M) of the 7th Cavalry under Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer's immediate command,[5] Companies C and G of the 17th U.S. Infantry, and the Gatling gun detachment of the 20th Infantry departed westward from Fort Abraham Lincoln in the Dakota Territory on May 17.

Custer's errors:

General Terry and others claimed that Custer made strategic errors from the start of the campaign. For instance, he refused to use a battery of Gatling guns, and turned down General Terry's offer of an additional battalion of the 2nd Cavalry. Custer believed that the Gatling guns would impede his march up the Rosebud and hamper his mobility. His rapid march en route to the Little Big Horn averaged nearly 30 miles (48 km) a day, so his assessment appears to have been accurate. Custer planned “to live and travel like Indians; in this manner the command will be able to go wherever the Indians can,” he wrote in his Herald dispatch.[74]
By contrast, each Gatling gun had to be hauled by four horses, and soldiers often had to drag the heavy guns by hand over obstacles. Each of the heavy, hand-cranked weapons could fire up to 350 rounds a minute, an impressive rate, but they were known to jam frequently. During the Black Hills Expedition two years earlier, a Gatling gun had turned over, rolled down a mountain, and shattered to pieces. Lieutenant William Low, commander of the artillery detachment, was said to have almost wept when he learned he had been excluded from the strike force.[74]

Chronological List 1832 through 1898, Indian War And U.S. Cavalry

http://usmilitaryhistory.com/Historical ... 20Wars.htm

July 2nd 1874 - Custer's force moves out of Fort Lincoln with trains numbering over 100 wagons, two companies of Infantry, a piece of heavy artillery, several Gatling guns, complemented by ten companies of the 7th Cavalry. In addition, Custer assembles a large group of Indian scouts, including Bloody Knife, his trusted Crow companion. The American expeditionary force approaches the hills towards the latter part of July and enters the Black Hills on the 25th, and makes camp in what would be present day Custer, South Dakota on the 27th. The troops remain in the hills for several weeks before returning to Fort Lincoln with information that the Black Hills are not being used by the Sioux. The expedition returns to Fort Lincoln with the entire trip being uncontested by the Sioux, a fact which has never been explained or fully understood,

July 11th 1877 - General Oliver Howard departs with just under 500 men (combined Infantry and Cavalry) to catch the Nez Perce Indians. They catch them on the 11th near Clearwater, Idaho, and a bitter two-day battle ensues. During this tremendous battle between the Army and Indians, a detachment of the 4th U.S. Artillery led by Lt. Charles Humphrey, expose themselves to intense fire while recovering an abandoned Howitzer and two Gatling guns, positioned immediately before the Indian positions.

Battle of the Clearwater

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Clearwater

Howard opened the battle by firing howitzers and Gatling guns at the Nez Perce camp in the valley below from the ridge he occupied. “These only served to announce the presence of the troops to the unsuspecting Indians and ‘to send horsemen…scampering over the hills in every direction…[while] herding their stock together, which was afterward driven by old Indians, squaws and children into the hills in the rear.”

General O.O. Howard's report, continued:

http://search.tacomapubliclibrary.org/u ... zperce.war

His grounds for cultivation lay near the mouth of the south fork of the Clearwater, supposed to be about 40 miles from our present position. With a view of preventing the completion of this treachery, I sent Captain Whipple, commanding his own and Winter's companies, and the Gatling guns, with instructions to make a forced march, surprise and capture the Chief and all that belonged to him.

By one o'clock a howitzer, maneuvered by Lieutenant Otis, Fourth Artillery, and two Gatling guns were firing toward the masses of Indians below. They were running their horses up the South Fork on both banks near the river, and driving their stock as far as possible beyond our range. In ten minutes it was impossible to reach them longer, owing to the craggy mountain shores back of and close to the river border.

The next bluff in that direction was beyond a deep and rocky transverse ravine perpendicular to this canyon, I instantly ordered my howitzer battery and Gatling guns, supported by Winter's cavalry, to go thither with full speed.

Immediately the pursuit is taken up by the infantry and artillery and Winter's cavalry company, dismounted, and the remaining cavalry as soon as they can saddle and mount. Capt. Jackson's company, just arrived, followed the Gatling gun in support at a trot as far as the bluff overlooking the river. The howitzers are brought to the same point with Trimble's company and shot and shell poured into the retreating masses of Indians and ponies.

The cavalry worked its way as rapidly as it could from its position on the left down the rugged mountain steeps to the deep ford, and crossed slowly into the Indian camp, and was strongly posted beyond it while the Gatling guns and howitzers, near which I was observing, were doing their best to reach the Indians, who were fleeing in every direction up the heights to the left of Cottonwood Creek and beyond the Clearwater.

The Gatling guns and musketry were used profusely from our side, but with little apparent effect, except to increase the rapidity of the enemy's retreat. As Perry's and Whipple's cavalry were passing a high bluff, which was beyond the river, a brisk fire was opened by the enemy for a few minutes, throwing this cavalry into considerable confusion for a time, but without loss.
Companies 'E' and 'L', Whipple commanding, left Walla Walla overland for Lapwai this morning. Companies A D G M [4th] Artillery and C [21st] Infantry will leave here Thursday morning [June 21st]. E Artillery and B E H Infantry at Wallula enroute. Have ordered Jackson B Cavalry to proceed to Lewiston via Roseburg and Portland. Have ordered one rifled gun, one howitzer and two gatlings and necessary ammunition from Vancouver Arsenal.

Does anyone have any information on the use of the 1.5-inch Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon, not the 1.65-inch Hotchkiss Mountain Gun?

[browerpatch]

A Gatling Gun Battery:

gatlingbat.jpg (461.58 KiB) Viewed 4456 times

[Couvi]

Excellent!