British Patttern Pack Saddle

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Pat Holscher
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Anyone have any information on these? Roy has posted a photo of one in Rhodesian use, and Larry sent me an excellent article he recently wrote showing, I believe, some of them in Canadian use in WWII.

How closely related is this patern to the UP saddle?

They sure resemble the Decker, as Couvi has ponted out.

Pat


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Pat Holscher
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Have they seen much surplus use anywhere? Canada, Australia, NZ?

Pat
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Larry's photos in his article on the Canadian Number 1 Pack Horse Troop show this pack saddle in use. The photo shows a saddle that appears to be identical to the one shown in Roys photos. Larry's article is mentioned here:

topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5427

Interesting saddle. It really does look a lot like a Decker.

Pat
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British pack horse in training, 1940.

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source ... id=3312065

Another one, note the caption informaiton.

http://editorial.gettyimages.com/source ... id=3373165



Pat
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Larry Emrick
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Pat: If the 1940 date is correct there's some interesting detail in that first photo, the one with horse and trooper going uphill. The trooper is still wearing puttees and carrying the round, mounted messkit, and what appears to be the mounted canteen, which was worn over the shoulder on a leather and canvas strap in a leather carrier rather than webbing. He also appears to be wearing the mounted small pack. The rifle sling, on the other hand, does appear to be the usual webbing type. Larry
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They have no relation to the UP saddle, beyond having a steel arch. I have a full set of illustrations of the pack saddle and its harness if anyone is interested.

There has been one for sale "Buy it now" on e-bay for months. He listed it the first time as "US", but now lists it as "military". I believe he wants $500.00.

Let me lnow on the illustrations.

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John Ruf
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br />Have they seen much surplus use anywhere? Canada, Australia, NZ?

Pat
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The UP pack saddles were used by the BC and Alberta Forest Services and are still being used by the Canadian Park Rangers in Jasper and Banf National Parks.
They also had considerable use by the Guiding/Hunting Outfits up the Alaska HW and in the Yukon in the 50's and 60's. They were surplused by Princess Auto out of Winnipeg along with UP saddles and some of the old Great West MP saddles(3/4 open seat, slick fork, Sam Stagg rigging). A rancher from Redwater, AB by the name of Tom Jarvis has considerable info an this.
Just this year Frontier Western Shop from Claresholm, AB has advertised in their cataloque a "Frontier Pro Pack Tree" which they promote as having the 'features of the old military design'. This is on page 59. They say they are on line at www.westernshop.com
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Pat Holscher
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Nice example of UP packsaddle in use, 1920, Palestine.

Image

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Apparently these fellows, who are on riot duty, weren't restricted to pack transportation, although the alternative doesn't look that great:

Image

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Pat,
I virtually certain that is a Model T Ford. They don't get as much attention as the more glamorous RR armoured cars but its likely that far more of them saw service in WWI. In a day when very few EM's would have known how to drive their three pedel planetary transmission made them easy to operate. that isn't the case now...its considered something of a skill to be able to drive one. I've done it and I'm not cmfortable at all behind the wheel although a lack of traffic would make it a bit easier.
This looks like a couple of bucket seats and a Lewis gun...it would have done 35 to 40 even with three men up, been light with lots of ground clearance. They were reliable and very easy to repair if they did break...the old saw is "pliers and bailing wire" would fix most things. Looking at it you have to wonder what was so revolutionary about the jeep.
Note the Indian soldier on the right.

JVP
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by JV Puleo</i>
<br />Pat,
I virtually certain that is a Model T Ford. They don't get as much attention as the more glamorous RR armoured cars but its likely that far more of them saw service in WWI. In a day when very few EM's would have known how to drive their three pedel planetary transmission made them easy to operate. that isn't the case now...its considered something of a skill to be able to drive one. I've done it and I'm not cmfortable at all behind the wheel although a lack of traffic would make it a bit easier.
This looks like a couple of bucket seats and a Lewis gun...it would have done 35 to 40 even with three men up, been light with lots of ground clearance. They were reliable and very easy to repair if they did break...the old saw is "pliers and bailing wire" would fix most things. Looking at it you have to wonder what was so revolutionary about the jeep.
Note the Indian soldier on the right.

JVP
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Even in terms of powerplant, they were sort of Jeep like. It sort of puts the Jeep in context.

This one looks like its a bit overloaded. I wonder if they've taken the hood off to aid in cooling.

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Possibly but I'd guess it was just in the way if they wanted to tinker with it. I don't suppose rain is a big issue in Palestine most of the time. Model T tourers regularly carried four people - often more - so I don't think this one is overloaded at all, especially as it dosen't have any body to speak of.
I think that Locker-Lampson actually made some mini-armored cars out of Model T's in Russia. they were very flexible and durable.

Joe P
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Another, or possibly the ame, example.

Image

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That is the same thing. Notice the transverse rear spring...you can see just a bit of it above the axle at the left rear. While Ford was't the only one to use springs like this, they held on to them much longer than nearly anyone else so that by this time they would have been regarded as very old fashioned.

Joe P
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Pat Holscher
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Pat Holscher wrote:Anyone have any information on these? Roy has posted a photo of one in Rhodesian use, and Larry sent me an excellent article he recently wrote showing, I believe, some of them in Canadian use in WWII.

How closely related is this patern to the UP saddle?

They sure resemble the Decker, as Couvi has ponted out.

Pat
You know, when I originally posted this question, it should have occured to me to look on our website. D'oh!

On the UP section of our site, incorporated from Dave Hamilton's fine UP site that was later incorporated into ours:

http://www.militaryhorse.org/upsaddle/pack.htm
Pat

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THE USE OF MODEL T FORDS AS PICTURED

Dunsterville, Lionel Charles (1865- 1946)
British Military Commander, Dunsterville, A Russian speaking Indian Army Officer, was appointed at the end of 1917 to lead a composte force of Australian, British, Canadian and New Zealand Troops charged with preventing a German-Turko invasion of India and establishing an indipendant Trans-Caucasia.
Supported by an attachment of armoured cars, Duntsterforce march 700 miles across Persia before being turned back by Russian revlountionary forces at Enzeli. A later attempt to occupy the important oil port of Baku had to be abandoned in the face of a superior Turkish force in September 1918, though the port was reoccupied at the Armistice. "Dunsterforce" achievements were a logistical miracle, but the force was too small (no more than 1000 men) to have any real or lasting effect, amounting to little more than an exciting adventure. Dunsterville was at school with Rudyard Kipling, for whom he provided the model of "Stalky".


HIS diary for these dates printed here
http://www.gwpda.org/Dunsterville/Dunst ... _1918.html
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hbtoday98
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I HAVE A PHOTO IN A BOOK IT SHOWS ABOUT TEN TEAMS IN HARNES USING GS PACK SADDLES CURRICLE GEAR PULLING WATER CARTS,MALTESE CART AS AMBULANCE IN GALLIPOLI(AUSTRALIAN WAR MEMORIAL PHOTO NO G526)WHICH IS NOW LOG UNDER ANOTHER NUMBER AS ANY BODY GOT INFO ON THE GEAR USED
CHEERS MAL
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http://cas.awm.gov.au/item/H10346
try this link the york are clearly seen on on the pack saddles
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