British Enlisted Pocket Knife

Pat Holscher
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This isn't a UP topic, but it is one that has come up elsewhere. Indeed, it might have come up on the old UP forum. I've forgotten the answer, so I'm reposting it.

I've heard that British Army pocket knifes have a hoof pick. But then I've also heard that they used to have a hoof pick, but no longer do. And I've heard that it is actually a marlin spike.

What's correct here, and if they did have a hoof pick, is it possible to find a surplus one that has one?

Pat
Camp Little
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Mine (Canadian stamped-broad arrow and C) has what I consider a marlin spike. I suppose it could be used as a hoof pick if it were ground down a bit. I've seen an identical one that was engraved with the name of a US wagoneer and dated 1917-1919. Certainly they were a popular WWI souvenir as they pop up all the time on ebay, oftentimes referred to as a jacknife.
John M Φ
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Yes, this was discussed a long while back.
However I will put down what I know.
A clasp knife with marlin spike and lanyard was introduced (or at least its previous use confirmed) in Feb 1872 for Engineers (LoC 2309).

The next clasp knife, MK2, was sealed in July 1876. It differed from the previous one in having the marlin spike made of best shear steel instead of malleable cast iron. (LoC 2979).

The regulation tool for hoof picking up to 1905 was the folding hoof pick. (seen strapped to horseshoe cases and sword frogs in photographs).
Military ones are usually stamped with WD, arrow, etc. I have several, but only one with a WD arrow. They were no doubt then also made for civilian use, as similar ones still are.

I have found no record as to when the military folding hoofpick was introduced but it was declared obsolete in 1905. (LoC 12713) and the clasp knife with marlin spike was to be used instead.

Mounted non-commissioned officers, and men in possession of the old clasp knife without marlin spike, were to retain the hoofpickers in possession or be supplied with one as a final issue. Any surplus hoofpickers to be disposed of.
An ordnanced clasp knife in my possession, dated 1943, has blade, tin-opener, marlin spike and turnscrew (the latter for studs in horseshoes). The marlin spike and turnscrew obviously repeating the function of the folding hoofpick with its turnscrew. The spike of my 1943 knife is still sharp so presumably not used for hoofpicking.
However, another similar one I have, dated 1940, does have the spike blunted and is thus probably a cavalry issue.

Note that the British Cavalry Training Manual of 1926 states ..."the pick of the clasp knife is supplied for picking out the horses feet, but any strong iron spike or hook will serve. The point should be filed off for this purpose".
This indicates that the spike on clasp knives issued to cavalry were normally filed down. Note the wording "should" used.
John.M.


John D Morgan
David Hamilton

Definite copy / paste on your info John thanks. I am certain that I read somewhere that the original design was conceived by a Cavalry officer. Unfortunately I have no idea where I read it so its probably worth disregarding it.

The Australian Army still issues the knife to this day and they are quite easy to find here. <b>Worthy of note</b>, for the time I owned my horse, six days out of eight when I was at the paddock with him I had one of these on my belt.

I could easily have a hoof in one hand, extract the knife, unfold the spike with the other. Also with one hand due to the protrusion of the blade and the waisting on the body of the knife the blade could be easily extracted to "cut off any daggy bits".

- Dave.

A 1981 dated modern example:

Image
John M Φ
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Other clasp knives exist that were made for the military horse, but non-regulation...for e.g.
A knife made for the City of London Imperial Volunteers. I will copy the paras from the "Black and White Budget"of March 3, 1900.
..."An excellent knife, originally designed for the C.L.I.V. but since supplied to the Volunteers of the Gordon Highlanders, The Yorkshire Yeomanry, and the Duke of Cambridge's Own, has been manufactured by Messrs.Thomas Turner and Co of Sheffield. It is called the "Lord Mayor's Own Knife" and has received the approval of H.R.H. the Duke of Cambridge, who says that hes "highly satisfied with the knife and thinks it quite the right thing for the purpose".
It measures four inches in length when closed, and consists of a good strong blade, an effective tin-opener and a strong square pincer, which can be used as a leather borer, a machine spiker, or a horse-hook. The price is five shillings and sixpence"....

I hope a picture will follow....John.M.

John D Morgan
John M Φ
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Another knife, probably a "one-off". Owned, (or issued to?)a Farrier of the 6th Royal Irish Regiment.
This clasp knife has only a blade and a straight blunted spike. It is stamped on its brass side plates....

..."FARR/R SERGT. F.J.McMAHON 1735 6 R.I.REGT."...
and
..."HULLOCK LOOS GUILLEMONT FRANCE GINCHY 1916"...

There are markings on the blade, yet to be cleaned!!.
I hope pictures will follow.
John.M.

John D Morgan
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Here's a US made (KeenKutter) example:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... 35406&rd=1
Pat Holscher
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Great replies, thanks. And I have some photos sent by participants to put up.



Pat
Pat Holscher
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by David</i>
<br />Definite copy / paste on your info John thanks. I am certain that I read somewhere that the original design was conceived by a Cavalry officer. Unfortunately I have no idea where I read it so its probably worth disregarding it.

The Australian Army still issues the knife to this day and they are quite easy to find here. <b>Worthy of note</b>, for the time I owned my horse, six days out of eight when I was at the paddock with him I had one of these on my belt.

I could easily have a hoof in one hand, extract the knife, unfold the spike with the other. Also with one hand due to the protrusion of the blade and the waisting on the body of the knife the blade could be easily extracted to "cut off any daggy bits".

- Dave.

A 1981 dated modern example:

Image
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I have a weakness for pocket knifes and, of course, now I must have one of these. Neat looking knife.

Pat
Joseph Sullivan
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Pocket knives and hats, eh? Any other fetishes?

Joe
Pat Holscher
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joseph Sullivan</i>
<br />Pocket knives and hats, eh? Any other fetishes?

Joe
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Tsk, tsk. A fondness for useful impliments is not a fetish.

Pat
Pat Holscher
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The following photographs are courtesy of John Morgan:

knife

Ferrier's knife
Pat Holscher
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Photographs courtesy of Reese Williams. Reese also provided the text. Thanks Reese!:

Image

Image

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Photo No. 2 top to bottom:

Victorinox Tinker - included for scale

World War One pattern
This was the standard issue clasp knife through from WWI through the
inter war years.
The small triangular blade is a can opener. There is a stud in the
middle of the blade on the opposite side which rests on the rim of the
can.
This particular knife is dated 1937 and carries the owner's serial
number on the spike. I haven't researched the individual but the number
is in the block of serial numbers
allotted to the cavalry.

World War Two pattern
A well worn example of the standard WWII knife. When new the blade would
have been the same profile and size as the one on the bottom knife.
This one dated 1944
This knife was also made and issued without the spike. In that version
the handle is straight on both sides without the protuusion for the
spike hinge.

World War Two late war economy pattern
To save money the scales were omitted. All of the examples I have seen
of this version were dated 1945.
This model was also made with a marlin spike.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Pat
Norman Leach

Further to John's Point:

I have not found when they were introduced but I have a folding hoof pick broad arrow marked and dated 1898 - so at least pre-Boer war.

Norman Leach
John M Φ
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Norman,
Nice to have a military issue folding hoofpick dated.

Reese,
Interesting that your knife recorded as issued to the cavalry still has a sharp point to the spike,
John.M.

John D Morgan
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John,

Since the knife is dated 1937 and might well have been issued after that it may be the owner was in one of the early mechanized units. I really need to get someone in the UK to research the number for me. It always adds interest to items in the collection to know something about the original owner.
Terry Newton

While not necessarily a collector's item I do get a lot of use out of one of these. I have found this hoof pick to work really well for me.

We collect SAK's, so that is another bonus for us.

http://www.swissknifeshop.com/Merchant2 ... Code=53611

BTW, you can usually find this model for $20 - $25.
Joe Sweeney
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Pat,

The following link will take you to some info I posted on the 14/18 forum concerning Clasp Knives.

Clasp Knives were some of those items that changed management/procurement responsibility in the DEOS. In the 1890's resonsibility for Clasp knives changed from QMG Branch 9 "Stores" to QMG Branch 7 whose major component was the RACD. From that date patterns were no longer tracked via the List of Changes but instead by the Registry of Changes of the RACD. In the NA records the actual manufacturing specifications still exist for Clasp knives from 1905 through WWI.

The link is with photo of a 1917 dated original; Pattern 9402/1917, 23 April 1917, “Knives, Clasp with Tin Opener and Marline Spike with Fibre Scales":

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?sh ... =18560&hl=

The Specification stated:

Clasp Knife pattern 6353/1905 with manufacturing specs no. 429a approved 1 Sept 1905, This pattern reintroduced the Marline spike. (all previuos Clasp knife (no Marline spike) patterns being declared obsolete/ FYI the LoC designated knives John points out had already been declared obsolete by the 1890's Clasp knives with no Marline spike):

“ 3. The blade and Tin Opener to be made of best cast steel, free from flaws, properly hardened and tempered, and to be as thin and as well ground as the Standard Pattern; the edge of the Blade to be wetted on an oilstone; to be 3 ½ inches long from “kick” point, to be 11/16 inch wide; the Bolster to be ½ inch long, to be solid, and made from the best iron; the “Springs” to be made of best spring steel, properly hardened and tempered. The Marline Spike to be made of cast steel, properly hardened and tempered. Length of Marline Spike when shut to be within 1/8 inch shorter than Spring; and the point, when shut, to be fitted close on the spring to prevent catching in the pocket.

4. The Length of the Handle to be 4 7/8 inches; the Scales to be checkered black horn 4 3/8 inches long Bolster ½ inch; to be riveted to plates with two iron rivets; the Shackle to be made of copper wire, No. 11 gauge, same size and shape as that of the Standard Pattern, and riveted with brass wire. The Blade, Tin Opener, and Marline Spike to be firmly riveted in, and to bear makers name on tangs.”

During the war alternate patterns were approved that touched on handle material and with or with out Marline spike.

All updates in pattern were to adhere to the 1905 dimensions save handle material and sometimes without marline spike. I have these records.

Could knives of other dimensions have been issued--of course, but unless it had iron clad provenance I would not consider it a WWI issue knife.

Joe Sweeney
Pat Holscher
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sweeney</i>
<br />Pat,

The following link will take you to some info I posted on the 14/18 forum concerning Clasp Knives.

Clasp Knives were some of those items that changed management/procurement responsibility in the DEOS. In the 1890's resonsibility for Clasp knives changed from QMG Branch 9 "Stores" to QMG Branch 7 whose major component was the RACD. From that date patterns were no longer tracked via the List of Changes but instead by the Registry of Changes of the RACD. In the NA records the actual manufacturing specifications still exist for Clasp knives from 1905 through WWI.

The link is with photo of a 1917 dated original; Pattern 9402/1917, 23 April 1917, “Knives, Clasp with Tin Opener and Marline Spike with Fibre Scales":

http://1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?sh ... =18560&hl=

The Specification stated:

Clasp Knife pattern 6353/1905 with manufacturing specs no. 429a approved 1 Sept 1905, This pattern reintroduced the Marline spike. (all previuos Clasp knife (no Martline spike) patterns being declared obsolete/ FYI the LoC designated knives John points out had already been declared obsolete by the 1890's Clasp knives with no Marline spike):

“ 3. The blade and Tin Opener to be made of best cast steel, free from flaws, properly hardened and tempered, and to be as thin and as well ground as the Standard Pattern; the edge of the Blade to be wetted on an oilstone; to be 3 ½ inches long from “kick” point, to be 11/16 inch wide; the Bolster to be ½ inch long, to be solid, and made from the best iron; the “Springs” to be made of best spring steel, properly hardened and tempered. The Marline Spike to be made of cast steel, properly hardened and tempered. Length of Marline Spike when shut to be within 1/8 inch shorter than Spring; and the point, when shut, to be fitted close on the spring to prevent catching in the pocket.

4. The Length of the Handle to be 4 7/8 inches; the Scales to be checkered black horn 4 3/8 inches long Bolster ½ inch; to be riveted to plates with two iron rivets; the Shackle to be made of copper wire, No. 11 gauge, same size and shape as that of the Standard Pattern, and riveted with brass wire. The Blade, Tin Opener, and Marline Spike to be firmly riveted in, and to bear makers name on tangs.”

During the war alternate patterns were approved that touched on handle material and with or with out Marline spike.

All updates in pattern were to adhere to the 1905 dimensions save handle material and sometimes without marline spike. I have these records.

Could knives of other dimensions have been issued--of course, but unless it had iron clad provenance I would not consider it a WWI issue knife.

Joe Sweeney


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks Joe,

Would you mind expanding on that laynard information that shows up in that thread. Quite interesting.

Pat
Joe Sweeney
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Pat,

The Lanyard pattern for Clasp knives in 1901 was a renewal of previuos patterns dating into the past century. I believe there were actually 4 patterns sealed (I'll have to reverify)all differing in how they were knotted. In 1901 all patterns were to be of natural flax, unbleached. All colored lanyards were obsolete. No change in lanyard patterns through 1929.

A should have also added on the knives that other material besides the scales and bolster configurations changed. Iron was allowed in lieu of copper like the Shackle. Most wartime types being declared obsolete after the war and the pattern 6353 being reverted to as the pattern of issue.
Locked