"1805" British light dragoon saddle.

John M Φ
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While browsing I came across a discussion on a military forum regarding the "1805" saddle on display in the Royal Armouries at Leeds...UK. It had been previously in the possession of the Walsall firm Jabez Cliff for many years.
There are photos of it in Major Tylden's book.."Horses and Saddlery".

For some years I have had suspicions about the identification of this saddle, basically as it has no spoon to the pommel for the loop of a pilch seat. Difficult to make further constructive comments without examining the saddle, but there appears to be no evidence of the removal of a pommel spoon. Perhaps screws were used in the early wood arch saddles, but I am surprised also to see screw heads looking at the underside of the sideboards rather than wood dowells.

In the discussion. one contributor stated most categorically that the saddle is not an example of the P1805 light dragoon saddle but a M1897 Dutch Colonial Artillery saddle..!!

I have requested, and am waiting for, photos, drawings..etc of the M1897 saddle....hopefully!.
Meanwhile does anyone have details of the M1897 Dutch saddle?.
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John M wrote:While browsing I came across a discussion on a military forum regarding the "1805" saddle on display in the Royal Armouries at Leeds...UK. It had been previously in the possession of the Walsall firm Jabez Cliff for many years.
There are photos of it in Major Tylden's book.."Horses and Saddlery".

For some years I have had suspicions about the identification of this saddle, basically as it has no spoon to the pommel for the loop of a pilch seat. Difficult to make further constructive comments without examining the saddle, but there appears to be no evidence of the removal of a pommel spoon. Perhaps screws were used in the early wood arch saddles, but I am surprised also to see screw heads looking at the underside of the sideboards rather than wood dowells.

In the discussion. one contributor stated most categorically that the saddle is not an example of the P1805 light dragoon saddle but a M1897 Dutch Colonial Artillery saddle..!!

I have requested, and am waiting for, photos, drawings..etc of the M1897 saddle....hopefully!.
Meanwhile does anyone have details of the M1897 Dutch saddle?.
So did they just flat out goof up? I'm really surprised by the wide gap in years in the patterns in question. 1897 is quite a bit later, in terms of patterns, than 1805.
John M Φ
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The "1805" saddle now in the Royal Armouries came from a back room in Jabez Cliffe's premises in Walsall.
Major Tylden had deduced it was possibly the only surviving example of the early 19th century wood arch hussars saddle and put a date on it of 1805, and illustrated it in his book.."Horses and Saddlery". So, the Royal Armouries have presumably accepted that identification.
A member of the Napoleonic forum states categorically it was a pattern in use by Dutch colonial artillery in 1897 and appears to have proof in the form of drawings. He also states the saddle is based on a Dutch mid 19th century cavalry saddle. I am sure that c 1897 all continental troopers saddles would have had iron arches. But the Royal Armouries saddle could possibly date to the mid 19th century..though not as a British saddle?.
As I mentioned previously. the Royal Armouries saddle does not have a spoon to the pommel, nor (apparently) signs of one having been removed, that one would expect on a British hussar saddle c.1805 to 1856. The spoon being needed for the front loop of the loose pilch seat.

So...I would very much like to see photos or drawings of wood arch Dutch cavalry saddles of mid 19th C , and of saddles in use with Dutch colonial artillery circa 1897!.
John Ruf
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Hello John:

There are also excellent photos of the Jabez-Royal Armoury saddle (AL.218 1) on p. 169 of "The American Military Saddle" by Dorsey and McPheeters.

I have Tylden open to plate 11 at this moment, and it brings to mind anotehr saddle altogether--I have plates for an 1842 Prussian Artillery Saddle which is strikingly similar:

Image

Image

Image

The Pommel Spoon is certainly in evidence in these prints--interestingly enough there is an iron-arched version of that saddle at the Ordnance Museum at Fort Lee, which (if my memory serves) had been ID's as an Austro-Hungarian mule saddle!
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Many thanks for your reply, John, and putting up those excellent of the Prussian artillery saddle. This 1842 saddle is more or less how I would expect the early 19th century British wood arch hussar saddle to look.
Though I am trying to work out from the illustrations how the loose pilch seat is attached to pommel and cantle as I would have expected loops to be clearly shown at both ends of the pilch.

Must have a longer, closer look, later,

Regards, John.
John M Φ
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John,
Trying to fully understand how the arches are made on this Prussian saddle. Seem quite a complicated profile / section. There wouldn't by any chance be a 3-dimensional drawing available?

Digressing and looking back again to Major Tylden's book...and the sketches figs 6, on page 30. These drawings were taken from Forbes " History of the Army Ordnance Services". I wonder if there is further supporting information in volume in of that set of 3 volumes, especially dates and details of supply?.
Unfortunately these books are probably difficult to source and expensive!.
John.M.
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Hello John:

No, I have no 3D drawing of it--I suppose I could have my students loft one using AutoCAD as a nice real world exercise.

I'm looking at Tylden, p. 130, Figures 6 and 7 right now--all three Forbes are expensive--they are on Google Books in "snippet view" though. I'll see if Mr Hansen has a set at the US Army Ordnance Museaum at Fort Lee.

I'm guessing it was in Volume I (Ancient)--Tylden doesn't specify.
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John,
I was just puzzled at the way the arches are shaped. Looking through my file of foreign ..to the UK...saddles I came across an excellent photo of a French early light cavalry wood arch saddle. This is in the Musee de l'Armee, Paris and is very similar to the Prussian saddle, but the arches look more basic and simpler.
When I have a new scanner..soon.. I will post a picture of it.

Yes, any information on the hussar saddles will be in vol one of Forbes,

John.M.
John Ruf
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Hello John:

Well, once in a blue moon it pays to be in academia--Forbes V1 is held in several libraries where I have inter-Library loan privileges. I can ask our head librarian to request it on my behalf.

U of Michigan has it on-line fully searchable, but no views--due to copyright restrictions. I have saved that index--we need to be looking at pp220-240.

Incidentally--it is available at several British libraries as well if you want to see it for yourself--I printed off a list of all the relevant libraries. The closest to me is the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland--it would not break my wife's heart to spend a day there; we like to kayak those waters once every few years.

So it looks like we can get a copy for your research one way or another.
John M Φ
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Your efforts are much appreciated, John.

Thanks, John.M.
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The following information acknowledges useful comments made by Paul Dawson and Rob Wolters...members of the Napoleonic Series site.

Paul Dawson...
"The 1796 saddle was a universal saddle for both light and heavy cavalry. Haythornwaite is at error. The Hungarian saddle was not officially adopted till 1812 and then only for regiments on Home Service. The Board of General Officers paper in Kew makes this very clear".

Rob Wolters....
Mentions that, in 1814 a few thousand of these Hungarian saddles were sent to Holland and used by a number of regiments.
He says that in the Dutch archives there are contracts, price lists and discussions that reveal a number of details.....as follows...

The front and rear arches were a 2 piece construction with dovetail connection.

Unlike the French version, the arches of the British ones were not reinforced with iron.

Common for this type of saddle is a leather seat, nailed to front and rear arch and tied to the sideboards with a leather thong.

Typically British were knee flaps held by the thong that tied the seat to the sideboards.

The girth was woven with hemp and had...at least on the near side....2 buckles. An article in the cavalry journal adds that the other end was reinforced with leather and tied to the sideboard with a leather thong. On the near side would be a another piece of leather with 2 straps.

The breastplate has a long and a short shoulder strap, that buckle together, the long end was looped around the front spoon. The connection point of the 3 strap is covered by a heart shaped piece of leather.

The crupper consisted of the straps , crossing each other, with a rosette and boss at the cross point.

The holsters were looped to the front spoon, the lower ends held by rings on the breastplate.

The centre cloak strap was a buckled strap, the outer ones were thongs, probably attached to the holster rings as the French version.

According to a drawing in said cavalry journal. the sideboards had fantails at the back like the 1856 pattern. On these fantails were buckled straps for the crupper.

There were also iron staples, for the valise strap, either on the fantails or on the rear arch.
John M Φ
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One interesting point made in previous posting is that the arches of the British saddles were not reinforced with with iron..unlike the French version. (assuming this observation was accurate).
The Royal Armouries example has iron reinforced arches.
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A French Hussar saddle ...presumably of the Napoleonic era...in the Musee de l'Armee, Paris. [img][/url][/img]
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John M Φ
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I had a "battle" downloading this pic. And its appeared large and a bit fuzzy!. Anyway, note the iron reinforcements that the British Hussar saddles were said not to have.
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John:

I was at the Invalides last spring--their collections are magnificent!

I wonder why the stirrup leathers are so long--notice how their long tail has been folded up on itself and passed through a captive keeper.
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John,
I wonder if the museum staff have attached the stirrup leathers back to front?. The additional folds of leather could then help protect leather against sabre cuts?.
I thought this was the purpose of buckling at the stirrup, with folds.
John.M.
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John:

I agree entirely that the stirrups leathers are reversed--I was unaware of the saber protection function--sort of along the lines of a spare curb chain on the browband...I guess it couldn't hurt!
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John M wrote:.

The breastplate has a long and a short shoulder strap, that buckle together, the long end was looped around the front spoon. The connection point of the 3 strap is covered by a heart shaped piece of leather.

The holsters were looped to the front spoon, the lower ends held by rings on the breastplate.
Don't you just love historians? Haythornthwaite is wrong, yet these two statements make no logical sense - practically, I can't see how they could work.

Interesting that the French saddle has steel on the 'wrong' side of the arch - the angle fixed to the sideboard must be weaker than if the steel were on the reverse. Could there be another hoop at the back with the two rivetted together through the timber?

http://cavalrytales.wordpress.com
unclearthur
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John M wrote:John,
I wonder if the museum staff have attached the stirrup leathers back to front?. The additional folds of leather could then help protect leather against sabre cuts?.
I thought this was the purpose of buckling at the stirrup, with folds.
John.M.

They're fitted correctly. If the buckles were on the outside, once you mounted they'd rub a hole in your nice, shiny hessians!

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John M Φ
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You are of course right, Uncle Arthur. I had made a careless observation. When mounted, the stirrup leather would half twist to place the loops and buckle in front of and away from the rider's boot with the smooth side of the leather against the riders boot.
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