1890 up ?

[1864mike]

Hi There
i am new to millitary horse gear collecting
and i wondered if anywone would have a look at these pics
looks like a 1890 first model ?
the cantle is slightly lower than the pommell there is no spoon , it also has iron staples for the girth straps.
not v attachments.
would appreciate any comments,
cheers from melbourne Australia

[Larry Emrick]

Sideview photos would help but a couple of things to look for are: Does it have steel struts from the rear of the cantle to the arches; and are the rear points of the arches pointed rather than rounded? Another of the distinctive features of an 1890 is the V-attachment, with its large d-ring and billet straps.
For photos, drawings and a description of an 1890 UP go the UP forum on this site's main page and from there click on the UP saddles pages.
John M should be able to give you a diffinitive answer but I am wondering from your photos if your saddle might be a driver's.
Regardless, with new webbing it appears that you have a good useable saddle.
Larry

[John M]

A bit of a puzzle. The sidebars and arches are 1902 pattern. As you suggest, the saddle should have a spoon cantle...perhaps cut off to suit the saddle for drivers?.. The sidebars on pre 1902 pattern saddles are more rounded.
I wonder if the girth straps were previously of the v-pattern...perhaps there are traces of the fixing holes?.
The girths and large staples are of the earlier type...MKI 1890..and earlier.
The dees on the top face near the rear end of the side bars would normally be sewn on to the leather pockets of the numnha panels. I do have a poor quality Indian made type P1902 saddle with dees attached as on this example.
I note extra dees at the foot of each rear arch.
The plates to the dees at the front end of the side bars look a bit crude.
John.M.

[John M]

Larry. I would clarify one point you made re 1890 girths. The short lived MKI 1890 had girth straps and large staple similar to that on the saddle under discussion. The more commonly found MKII 1890 had the v-girths and D ring you referred to. The short lived MKIII still had the v-girth but instead of the large dee a simple plate attached to the rectangular girth protector....ie..as on P1902 but the leather protectors straight sided instead of being (1902) scalloped.

As Larry said...the UP1890 had supporting struts to the rear (flat) arch.