45/70 Sharps accoutrements

[browerpatch]

Where can one find a list and/or descriptions of the accoutrements issued with the 45/70 Sharps carbine? I'd like to find repros (or reasonably priced originals) for use with my repro carbine. Also, where can I find out how many were issued, and how long did they stay in service?

Thanks,

[JV Puleo]

If you're talking about the military Sharps carbine, it was only chambered for 50-70 and they were made from paper cartridge guns.
The best, and as far as I know the only "one volume" source for the information on the guns and their accoutrements is "Arming & Equipping the US Cavalry, 1865-1902". Not too surprisingly, its by our fellow member, Dusan Farrington.

The subject is covered in other places but not comprehensively...so most authors have written about the carbines or belts or holsters etc. while leaving out everything else.

Book is available from Mowbray Publishing:
manatarmsbooks.com

Joe Puleo

[browerpatch]

Joe,
Thanks, I wasn't aware that the 45/70 Sharps carbine wasn't an issue weapon. I thought it was issued as a trial, but was dropped in favor of the trapdoor type. Thanks for straightening me out. My question then becomes this: Was there a 45/70 Sharps military-type carbine at all?

[JV Puleo]

As far as I know the cartridge Sharps was always intended as a stop-gap measure. The military realized the superiority of the metallic cartridge but realized that it would take some time to decide on a new sustem...taking into consideration that the adoption of a single service-wide cartridge was considered absolutely essential. The action of the Spencer cannot handle a cartridge as long as the 50-70, so converting the existing repeater was out of the question. The second and thrid most popular CW carbines were the Sharps and the Burnside. The Burnside was obviously out of the running although it was arguably the best of the early metallic cartridge arms...by 1866 it was clearly obsolete.

There were 1870 Sharps trial carbines and they remain a mystery to this day since no specimen has ever been unquestionably identified. They may have been so similar to the converted carbines that they've all been lost to sight...or they may all have been broken up or they may have been sold overseas...we just don't know. Curiously, there are known specimens of all of the other 1870 test arms. In any case, the test Sharps were also in 50-70.

Some of those converted Sharps remained in service for a surprisingly long time. I recently saw a reference to a Colorado Militia Cavalry unit that was still armed with them in 1914! Many of them were reissued to indians, packers, teamsters etc. as the new trapdoors arrived. This makes them exceptionally historic arms, with CW use, regular Cavalry use right after the war and use by all sorts of military support personnel after that.

[Trooper]

As usual Joe has said it all much more succinctly than I could.
The only thing I would add is that the 1870 trials Sharps were .50 calibre too as that seemed to be the cartridge that would be adopted at the time. Slightly later experiments showed the .45 to be the optimum military calibre, but, so far as I am aware, no military Sharps were made in that calibre.

The conversion carbines were rugged arms and saw a lot of frontier action both in military and civilian hands. Military issues of the conversions and trials carbines and the accoutrements issued to accompany them are covered in my work.

[Pat Holscher]

I have it in mind that Sharps rifles were adopted by New York for its National Guard, and I thought those to be in .45-70. Note here, I'm speaking of rifles, not carbines. I don't know if New York had a need for any carbines of any type, one way or another.

Does anyone know if that's true?

[JV Puleo]

Pat,
New York used Remington Rolling Blocks, in 50-70.
Its a special model that, like the US Army issued Rolling Blocks, can be loaded at half-cock. The conventional #1 Remington, of which millions were made and exported, can only be loaded at full-cock. This was to satisfy US Ordnance demands. It turns out the "full-cock loading" didn't present the safety problem that the Ordnance Department feared and it made the internal workings of the gun quite a bit more complicated.
Prior to 1873 the various states often bought their own arms to replace their CW muzzle loaders. Connecticut and Massacusetts bought .43 caliber Peabodys, (made in Providence, RI) for instance. After 1873 there was a concerted effort to get the entire militia system, as well as the Regular Army using the same weapons so the production capacity of trapdoor Springfields was never limited to equipping the Regular forces...the plan was to re-equip everyone with the new, universal pattern arm. A few guns, such as the Connecticut Peabodys were converted to 45-70, probably because the trapdoors were slow arriving.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,
New York used Remington Rolling Blocks, in 50-70.
Its a special model that, like the US Army issued Rolling Blocks, can be loaded at half-cock. The conventional #1 Remington, of which millions were made and exported, can only be loaded at full-cock. This was to satisfy US Ordnance demands. It turns out the "full-cock loading" didn't present the safety problem that the Ordnance Department feared and it made the internal workings of the gun quite a bit more complicated.
Prior to 1873 the various states often bought their own arms to replace their CW muzzle loaders. Connecticut and Massacusetts bought .43 caliber Peabodys, (made in Providence, RI) for instance. After 1873 there was a concerted effort to get the entire militia system, as well as the Regular Army using the same weapons so the production capacity of trapdoor Springfields was never limited to equipping the Regular forces...the plan was to re-equip everyone with the new, universal pattern arm. A few guns, such as the Connecticut Peabodys were converted to 45-70, probably because the trapdoors were slow arriving.

Thanks Joe. I was way off the mark in associating Sharps with New York. And the history of the post 1873 arms you cite is very interesting.

[Rick Throckmorton]

Just to add to the confusion, interestingly, the Sharps Rifle Co. DID offer what they called a "Military Rifle" in their catalog of sporting rifles. These were part of what is commonly called the Model 1874 Sharps rifles, and they were configured like the infantry rifles of the Civil War, the later conversions into the .50/70 cartridge, and the M1870 Trial versions. These rifles were for the civilian market and could be purchased in any of their listed chamberings (which was many!), but were most often found in .50/70 and .45/70 (which they called .45 2 1/10"). These Sharps Military Rifles were popular on the frontier and many buffalo hunters used them as opposed to the classic 1874 Sporter versions. There are several period photographs taken during the great buffalo hunt period that show these rifles being used. Let me re-emphasize, these rifles were NOT made for the military, but were a model of sporting rifle made by Sharps called the "Military Rifle", and offered to civilian purchase.
Rick T.

[mnhorse]

I just found a 45-70 Sharps......sort of. Go to the GUN BROKER auction site and look at auction 92002161.
As may be expected there has been some hanky-panky going on with this gun.
Seller freely admits it is a CW carbine with "business man" barrel. Evidently Sharps was or is easy to modify via component swap.

I have what is left of a carbine that had been remodeled to 50-70, rode hard and put up wet, then stripped so the action could be "married" to a new 45-70 barrel and restocked.
Anyone need some old walnut???
Richard

[browerpatch]

Richard,
Is your old walnut serviceable? I wouldn't mind having an old stock on my new action. My only concern would be fit. What would you take for it?
Frank