Notable Passings

[Pat Holscher]

George MacDonald Fraser. January 2, 2008.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/03/arts/ ... ref=slogin

Mr. Fraser was a World War Two veteran, and the author of the Flashman series of books (which I have not read). His biography, Quartered Safe Out Here, about his WWII experiences is also sometimes noted here.

Mr. Fraser was veteran of the British Army, having served in the CBI.

Pat

[wkambic]

Mr. Laine also sang the opening song in "Blazing Saddles." [8D]

I've read a couple of the "Flashman" books. They're an "aquired taste." I never aquired it. [;)]



Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

[selewis]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by wkambic</i>
<br />Mr. Laine also sang the opening song in "Blazing Saddles." [8D]



Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I missed the Frankie Laine obit, sorry to hear it. In a somewhat recent interview (perhaps you saw it), he said that Mel Brooks didn't tell him that the movie was a comedy. He wanted it sung sung straight and was afraid the knowledge would influence his interpretation.
RIP

[wkambic]

"'Scuse me while I whip this out!" [8D]

Yes, I heard that. I thought Frankie did a good job. I don't think it hurt the man's reputation even a little bit!!!!

It's also said that Mel Brooks and John Wayne met one day in the commissary and Wayne asked Brooks if it was true that he was making a Western where they said such things as, "blow it out your ass." Brooks said it was true and asked Wayne if he wanted to be in it. "No," replied The Duke, "But I'll be the first one in line to see it!!!!!"

I guess Brooks is done with Hollywood and will finish out his days conquering Broadway. "The Producers" has done quite well and I understand he's working on a stage adaptation of "Young Frankenstein." That was the first Brooks film I ever saw and have been hooked ever since.

Sorry, but there's now way I can see to tie any Mel Brooks movie to the topic of military horsemanship. [:D]



Bill Kambic

Mangalarga Marchador: Uma raça, uma paixão

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by wkambic

I guess Brooks is done with Hollywood and will finish out his days conquering Broadway. "The Producers" has done quite well and I understand he's working on a stage adaptation of "Young Frankenstein." That was the first Brooks film I ever saw and have been hooked ever since.

Sorry, but there's now way I can see to tie any Mel Brooks movie to the topic of military horsemanship. [:D]

Well, it won't be easy. I guess we could mention that Mel Brooks served as an artilleryman, and then engineer, in WWII. That wouldn't create a horse connection, of course.

On a minor note, Young Frankenstein is always mentioned as a Mel Brooks film, but Gene Wilder actually had as much to do with it, and shares in the credits. Brooks asked Wilder's permission to make a Broadway play out of it, and by mutual consent, Wilder won't have a role in that. It's not that they are angry at each other, or anything, but that Wilder and Brooks just didn't think they'd work well together on it.

I recently heard a NPR interview of Wilder in which he discussed the projects he worked with Brooks on. Wilder basically admires his genius, but Brooks drove him crazy when they were making films. Wilder is a bit chagrined that he never gets any credit for Young Frankenstein, but that he doesn't is understandable.

Pat

[luigi]

Well... A connection could be made through "Blazing Saddles"... the image of the incoming sheriff with his shiny horse and Gucci saddlebags! ) )

Luigi
------------------

[bisley45]

Originally posted by luigi
<br />Well... A connection could be made through "Blazing Saddles"... the image of the incoming sheriff with his shiny horse and Gucci saddlebags! ) )

....yeah....with Count Basie's orchestra playing from atop a sand dune.....too funny!

Alex Karras was in the movie- he was a football player- Patton favored football- there you go!

Bisley 45

Don't sweat the petty things...and don't pet the sweaty things.

[Pat Holscher]

The last French veteran of World War One has died:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080313/ap_ ... wi_veteran

At least one American veteran and one Canadian veteran remain.

[Pat Holscher]

A list of the remaining (with thanks to Mikko Härmeinen).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surviving_ ... orld_War_I

[Pat Holscher]

Philipp Freiherr von Boeselager, one of the German officers who attempted to assassinate Hitler, and a German cavalryman, has died at age 90.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/05 ... index.html

[dimarcol]

Part of the cadre of German army leaders who were instrumental in the transition to the FRG in the 1940s and 50s.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I met him in 1985 at the then annual NATO reconnaissance competition named for his brother George von Boeselager.

[Pat Holscher]

Part of the cadre of German army leaders who were instrumental in the transition to the FRG in the 1940s and 50s.

I mentioned in an earlier post that I met him in 1985 at the then annual NATO reconnaissance competition named for his brother George von Boeselager.

What you mention in regards to the transition to the FRG is very interesting. Many WWII era Heer officers ended up in the Bundesheer. I've often wondered what individuals like Von Boeselager did in that regards. He would have seemed ideally suited to have been involved in that effort, given as he had acted against the Nazis, and would have been at least somewhat free of the Nazi taint.

Still, I note that the article on his death states that he did not say much about his role for quite some time, as the July 20 plotters were viewed as traitors in Germany after the war. That would seem to be surprising, given that there was no way to hide what the Nazis had done by that time. Still, I've seen more than one comment to that effect, so there must be something to it. I've seen Von Manstein specifically mentioned as a senior officer who did not approve of any effort to give post war approval of any kind to the July 20 plotters.

Over time, feelings must have changed. But it's a bit surprising that the actions of the July 20 plotters weren't seen in a generally more positive light quicker. Perhaps they were amongst common people, but not amongst the defeated Germany military class, which had otherwise failed to act.

[Pat Holscher]

This is my son's current event topic of the week, winning out over the Virgina collector killed by the Civil War cannon ball.

[wkambic]

All German officers and enlisted took a personal oath to the Fuhrer. Oaths were taken VERY seriously in those days, particularly in the military. The plotters broke their sacred word by their actions. While this can be morally and ethically justified by a "change of circumstances" in a fundamentally conservative society it's going to leave a "bad taste" in the mouths of many.

I suspect one could come up with some other reasons, but I'll leave that to the socialogist community.

[Pat Holscher]

All German officers and enlisted took a personal oath to the Fuhrer. Oaths were taken VERY seriously in those days, particularly in the military. The plotters broke their sacred word by their actions. While this can be morally and ethically justified by a "change of circumstances" in a fundamentally conservative society it's going to leave a "bad taste" in the mouths of many.

I suspect one could come up with some other reasons, but I'll leave that to the socialogist community.

I think that's quite correct. To add to it, the German military was heir to a Prussian tradition that very much emphasized a separation from actions taken pursuant to order from personal morality. The American military has never really done that, and there remains the concept that a person is still accountable for their actions in spite of orders. And other militaries hold that view to varying degrees as well. Napoleon, for example, in spite of being a dictator always held that his officers could resign if they disagreed with him. In the Prussian tradition, however, an officer was expected to obey, and if under orders, he was basically free of any culpability for his actions. Loyalty was emphasized, in spite of personal views.

Having said that, the German military did have notable exception it carried out to this rule in 1918, which is hard to get around. The German military chose not to go down with the Kaiser. How it occurred that the German Army would choose to save itself over the Kaiser, when it wouldn't do that in regards to Hitler, remains an enduring historical mystery.

Of some note, at least a significant minority of the July 20 plotters, although there aristocratic officers, of the officer class, fit somewhat outside of the Prussian tradition. Not all of them to be sure, but just enough of them were outside the Prussian tradition to make it an interesting point.

[Tim Holekamp]

I see that this thread has cooled off a bit, but I suspect it will heat back up next month when the movie about the von Boeslaeger conspiracy is released. Lately, for ancillary personal reasons I alluded to in a related thread last fall, I have been back on the trail of this story, and have made some progress, even outside of what has been published in the past.
Seems to me that Pat has explained the mystery: How could 100 German Army officers, nearly every one somehow blood-connected to the Prussian military tradition, have even contemplated assassinating their commander in chief? There are some points on this I find interesting:
1) CIC not a Prussian, even remotely, worse yet, a civilian from Hapsburgland, the Prussians' historical rivals. Not worthy of the respect and duty mentioned by Pat.
2) Curiously, the decision to act to end the Reich came nearly a year before the suitcase bomb of von Stauffenberg, with the original plotters planning to kill Hitler with handguns face-to-face. There were two reasons that they did not do this: a) There were only two among all the plotters who professed the mental ability to actually pull the trigger in that situation, and neither von Boeslaeger was among the two. Great concern that the two might not be up to it. This reflects Pat's point. and b) There was much fear that the shooters would somehow fail to kill Himmler too, which would ruin the purpose. See below.
3) To understand the plotters better, you need to know that in early 1943 it became apparent to these officers that military action would not lead to Hitler's stated goal, total defeat and domination of Europe and Great Britain, and far worse, secret negotiations with the English had revealed that a negotiated surrender or armistice with withdrawals was no longer an option. Churchill had privately informed the Reich that it was going to be total capitulation or total decimation of Germany. It was this knowledge that the von Boeslaegers were responding to, and in fact, their purpose (recorded only later, so obviously subject to revisionism) was to stage a coup and surrender immediately, saving the Fatherland being destroyed, taking their chances with the Allies. The bind, and it was a huge bind, was that they were certain that unless they managed events perfectly, the killing of Hitler would merely set off a civil war in Germany between the Wehrmacht and the SS, creating a situation where far worse destruction would occur. Dithering went on for a long time over this, and there were simultaneously occurring the negative events of the Eastern Front, over which the von Boeslaegers had a lot of responsibility.
4) As you know, many of the principals of the Conspiracy died soon after the suitcase bomb event, either in retaliation or by their own hands. Those who survived did so by lying VERY low, and after the war ended, because no one knew who knew what, there was an ongoing urge to "disappear" among these survivors, all of whom were greatly concerned that there were still operational Reichsters ready and willing to come and murder them and their families, even twenty years later (personal communication, family of surviving conspirator). It was not until the 1980s that these survivors were willing to write down the facts of these events.
Tim

[Pat Holscher]

Alexander Solzhenitsyn, a towering figure of dissent against the Soviet Union, died this past week at the age of 90. He is remembered, of course, for his writings detailing the Soviet repression of the Russian people, but he has a connection here as well, as he served in the Soviet Army in World War Two. Originally, he was detailed as a soldier assigned to be a driver on carriage teams. He was later commissioned as an artillery officer (and given that, I have always wondered if he was briefly a member of the Communist Party, as I thought all Soviet officers were, he was later, at any rate, a devoted Russian Orthodox Christian). He was arrested late in the war and imprisoned for ten years for placing comments critical of Stalin in a letter.

He remained a difficult person throughout his life, in some ways, and was critical of his Western hosts while an exile from his native land. In recent years he somewhat ironically was a figure admired by Russian President Putin, who could cite his nationalistic, and not particularly democratic, views in support of his administration. Nonetheless, enormous credit must be given to him for his bravery in publishing in the face of certain punishment, and his clarity of view on the Soviet Union as an author, in the most difficult circumstances.

His most famous works remain the three volume Gulag Archipelago, but my favorite is the novel One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich, which is a true classic.

[JV Puleo]

I don't believe he was ever a party member and I'm sure that all officers were not although it was obviously needed if one expected to advance very far. He was a war-time captain of artillery, something his command of mathematics helped qualify him for. His father was a decorated officer in WWI and that alone would have kept him back.
I've always felt that his "August 1914" was his best book but I'm sure thats my prejudice for the era speaking rather than the quality of his writing, which is very difficult to translate well. He went out of his way not to use foreign "loan words" and relied on a wonderful command of what might be thought of as "old fashioned" Russian. Russian has one of the smallest "native" vocabularies of a modern language and uses many words borrowed from other languages so that writing without using those words demands not only skill but a real scholars knowledge of the language itself.
He was very Russian in his outlook and no admirer of western "culture" though at the same time he despised the Soviet system. Actually, his criticisms of western society are exagerated in my mind. He was no more critical of the west than most devoutly religious people in the west are. I know plenty of religious Christians and Jews that regard certain elements of our "pop-culture" as disgraceful and wonder about the all-to-prevelent western notion of equating wealth with competence. I have the feeling he was much closer to the early 19th century Russian romantic mystics than he was to any political system of the 20th century.

[Reese Williams]

My understanding is that he was not only a party member but an ardent, almost rabid communist. That in fact that was what won him his all expenses paid vacation in the gulag. He criticized uncle Joe for not being communist enough. Apparently his stay in the gulag help to change his perception of the system.

[JV Puleo]

I'd be curious to find out where you heard that. I've been following his career since at least the early 70s. I read August 1914 while babysitting a big yellow Rolls-Royce in the center of a shopping mall back around 1973 and this is the first time I've ever heard that contention.

There is quite a bit of biographical information on the internet... of course the fact that its on the internet proves nothing about its accuracy but none of the articles I've read even suggest he was ever a party stalwart. The fact that his father was an officer combined with his "cosmopolitan" background would almost certainly kept him out of the party. Somewhere else I read that his family were Cossacks also. That in itself would have labeled him as very questionable since virtually none of the cossack middle class sided with the reds.

His math background would have certainly made him valuable in the artillery though. In those days before GPS systems there was a great deal of math involved in being a successful artillery officer. It is why that branch in many armies attracted talented men who lacked connections or wealth. No amount of money or social status could make up for the complete inability to do the work. And forgive me but its why so many of the well-born but not terribly talented were drawn to the cavalry. They all could ride and in the junior ranks not much more was required of them.

http://www.gradesaver.com/classicnotes/ ... itsyn.html