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Pat -- I, too noticed the use of the horned packers. Perhaps the M1917 name was applied to a standardized model that was purchased in larger quantities?
Joe
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I strongly suspect that may be the case. While it is pure supposition on my part, the 1917 really appears to be the same saddle as the R. T. Frazier saddle illustrated in Daly's 1910 book, and which has been mentioned in a couple of other threads. I suspect that the Army may have adopted this saddle, in the fully rigged and skeleton rigged variants, when the large purchases of WWI might have made it necessary to describe it by a model number. Again, that's supposition on my part, but distinguishing this saddle from the 1917, at least based on the photographs, would be difficult. Has anyone ever run into an example of this type of Army saddle which they know to have been made before 1917? Does anyone have a set of pommel bags for this saddle and are they the same as those depicted in the first photo? Pat
This thread was mentioned in the recent "Chasing Villa" thread due to the photos depicting troopers wearing overcoats. I thought it might be of interest for that reason.
Pat
Dallas, is there anything additional on these photos? They depict these soldiers wearing the overcoat, and in one photo, a service coat. This would seem to be contrary to the information supplied by some texts, as referenced in the current "Chasing Villa" thread. Pat
Pat: I don't know any more about those photos. I've had them for a long time and I don't even remember how I got them. The ones I sent were selected from over 100 pictures. A few of them have pencil captions on the back. They indicate that they were taken along the Mexican border in late 1916 by someone from the North Carolina National Guard. I think the cavalry troops were probably regular army. Probably some of the photos were taken in Mexico but only a few have any notes on them. One photo shows four men in a trench and on the back is written "Trench on the Rio Grande about 40 miles below Camp Stewart looking into Mexico". Another one shows a group of men marching with three trucks behind. On the back is "Machine Gun Company of one of the Pennsylvania Regiments ?????? off morning chill, Nov. 1916". Another one shows two men in a dead tree and says "Outpost - San Ezario - on the Rio Grande - Nov. 30/16". Another says "Near Ysleta on the Rio Grande - Thanksgiving Day - Nov. 1916". Another says "Marshall, Texas, March 24, 1917 - 2nd NC Inf. enroute home". So I really can't add anything else.
Dallas
The Pennsylvania Division was in the second call up of June 1916 and was stationed at Camp Stewart just outside Fort Bliss. Isleta is a an old Pueblo from Spanish days just down the Rio Grande del Norte from El Paso and the other places mentioned are in that area also. Most southern NG units, being from poor states, had been on short supplies for years and had to be brought up to strength and requipped; so they did not start to arrive until the third wave in September and October. All of this is covered in great detail in the <u>Report on Mobilization</u> published by the US Army Militia Bureau. I have been collecting images, narratives, and artifacts of this period since 1968 or so. The last time I was in Austin and San Antonio doing research was in 1975 after a CMH meeting at Fort Sill. Two other personal narratives that come to mind are Roger Batchelder who was in a MASS MG co and by Irving Goff McCann who was a chaplain with the Illinois NG. A partial bibliography of what I had a few years ago was published in <u>Border Fury</u>. And one can find more personal magazine articles listed in <u>Blood on the Border</u>. Always looking for more gleaned from newspapers and books of the period. El Cutachero
Dallas, thanks. They sure are neat photos. Pat
I thought I'd bump this up for the photo links, given the recent query on the P.E.
Here's some more P.E. threads. Feel free to comment on any of these, as they are all active. http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topi ... IC_ID=3295 http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topi ... IC_ID=2362 http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topi ... IC_ID=3111 http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topi ... IC_ID=2890 http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topi ... IC_ID=2590 http://www.militaryhorse.org/forum/topi ... IC_ID=1869 Pat
Pat,
2.95" Vickers-Maxim Mountain Gun, Model of 1900. That should be "D" Battery/4th Field Artillery (I had a relative in that unit.). The load in the second photo is the “Recoil-Recuperator Load”. Behind that load is the “Wheels-Breech Load,” I think. I can’t see it well enough to tell. Couvi <i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
Thanks Couvi. Pat
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Couvi</i>
<br />Pat, <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i> <br />What gun is this? http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00530.JPG http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00479.JPG Pat <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">2.95" Vickers-Maxim Mountain Gun, Model of 1900. That should be "D" Battery/4th Field Artillery (I had a relative in that unit.). The load in the second photo is the “Recoil-Recuperator Load”. Behind that load is the “Wheels-Breech Load,” I think. I can’t see it well enough to tell. Couvi <i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> You're scarin' me, Couvi! [;)]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kelton Oliver</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Couvi</i> <br />Pat, <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i> <br />What gun is this? http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00530.JPG http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00479.JPG Pat <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">2.95" Vickers-Maxim Mountain Gun, Model of 1900. That should be "D" Battery/4th Field Artillery (I had a relative in that unit.). The load in the second photo is the “Recoil-Recuperator Load”. Behind that load is the “Wheels-Breech Load,” I think. I can’t see it well enough to tell. Couvi <i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> You're scarin' me, Couvi! [;)] <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I'm quite certain that Couvi, given about four hours, could completely outfit and instruct any US military unit of any era, and field it with equal competence to the originals, commanding it with a complete knowledge of its original role and equipment. Pat
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kelton Oliver</i> <br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Couvi</i> <br />Pat, <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i> <br />What gun is this? http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00530.JPG http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00479.JPG Pat <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">2.95" Vickers-Maxim Mountain Gun, Model of 1900. That should be "D" Battery/4th Field Artillery (I had a relative in that unit.). The load in the second photo is the “Recoil-Recuperator Load”. Behind that load is the “Wheels-Breech Load,” I think. I can’t see it well enough to tell. Couvi <i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> You're scarin' me, Couvi! [;)] <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I'm quite certain that Couvi, given about four hours, could completely outfit and instruct any US military unit of any era, and field it with equal competence to the originals, commanding it with a complete knowledge of its original role and equipment. Pat <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">And you wonder why it is so hard to stay humble! Couvi <i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
I'm gong to seperate some of Dallas' photos for a seperate thread, but I thought I'd bump up this entire set. Really interesting stuff.
Pat
Interesting photo of three officers, including Maj. Tomkins.
http://gallery.unl.edu/picinfo/4238.html Pat
Here are some photos of the P.E. I found.
http://www.elpaso.org/galleryThumb.asp?category=5 John Fitzgerald Eagle County, Colorado Ride'm like you stole'm
Note in the last photograph of National Guard troops that the tents are ‘dog’ tents as opposed to ‘pup’ tents. If I recall correctly, soldiers slept three to a tent. Two of them used their shelter half to make the tent and the third pitched his half over the end of the tent in the direction from which the wind was blowing. Couvi "Cavalier sans Cheval"
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Couvi</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Fitzgerald</i> <br />Here are some photos of the P.E. I found. http://www.elpaso.org/galleryThumb.asp?category=5 John Fitzgerald Eagle County, Colorado Ride'm like you stole'm <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Note in the last photograph of National Guard troops that the tents are ‘dog’ tents as opposed to ‘pup’ tents. If I recall correctly, soldiers slept three to a tent. Two of them used their shelter half to make the tent and the third pitched his half over the end of the tent in the direction from which the wind was blowing. Couvi <i>"Cavalier sans Cheval"</i> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> I didn't even realize there was such a thing as a dog tent. Up until now, I didn't have any idea why a pup tent was a put tent. Man, GI pup tents. Talk about a technology hanging on to the biter end. . . Pat
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