Practice executing the Charge (photo)

by **Trooper** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:17 am

Paul and Pat,
Concerning campaign hats and their use in dating photographs I thought you might be interested in this little gem that I found in one of the few accounts of his part in the Span Am War written by a Regular EM. The book, published 1901 by William H. Oliver Jr.,Troop A 5th. U.S. Cavalry is titled "Roughing It With The Regulars", it concerns his participation in the Porto Rican campaign and contains the following very interesting early reference to what later became the familiar Montana Peak. The reference is from his description of his early training in Tampa before embarkation:
"...What a fine sight it was to see line after line of such men straight as arrows, campaign hats, all worn in one style - Teton peak - made by drawing the crown of the hat to a point at the top and having three indentations in it...". This shows that as early as spring 1898 it was fashionable amongst some elelments of Regular regiments at least, to wear the campaign hat in a style we would normally expect to be of a rather later date. Contrarily, I too have seen photos as late as the PE that show officers at least, wearing their campaign hats "creased fore and aft like a fedora" in the old regulation style.
I thought you would like the "Teton peak" description Pat.
Dušan

by **Pat Holscher** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:38 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Paul Scholtz
 
BTW, Pat, while at the UCC-1, I visted with a saddler at the UCC-1 who claimed to have an order from the Wyo. NG for a large number of '28 MacClellans, is that your 115th or what is left of it? We would like to recruit these boys for the 2004 UCC-1, and see no reason why a distiguished officer such as yourself should not ride with them, Rdleg that you may be! Any info? Perhaps we could restage the picture beginning this thread! I have a helmet you could wear.......
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have no idea what these orders would be for, and frankly I'm surprised. There hasn't been all that much interest in the horse cavalry in the WNG in the past, but perhaps that is changing. Back in the misty dawn of time when I was in a WARNG unit, the rememberance of cavalry was mostly limited to photographs of the 115th Cav. on the armory walls. A correction though, I doubt I'd be regarded as distinguished in any company, and the "officer" ID was definately not the case.

I'll check into the saddles and see what's going on.

Pat

by **Pat Holscher** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:59 am

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Trooper
 Paul and Pat,
Concerning campaign hats and their use in dating photographs I thought you might be interested in this little gem that I found in one of the few accounts of his part in the Span Am War written by a Regular EM. The book, published 1901 by William H. Oliver Jr.,Troop A 5th. U.S. Cavalry is titled "Roughing It With The Regulars", it concerns his participation in the Porto Rican campaign and contains the following very interesting early reference to what later became the familiar Montana Peak. The reference is from his description of his early training in Tampa before embarkation:
"...What a fine sight it was to see line after line of such men straight as arrows, campaign hats, all worn in one style - Teton peak - made by drawing the crown of the hat to a point at the top and having three indentations in it...". This shows that as early as spring 1898 it was fashionable amongst some elelments of Regular regiments at least, to wear the campaign hat in a style we would normally expect to be of a rather later date. Contrarily, I too have seen photos as late as the PE that show officers at least, wearing their campaign hats "creased fore and aft like a fedora" in the old regulation style.
I thought you would like the "Teton peak" description Pat.
Dušan
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dusan,

Thanks, interesting material.

Campaign hats have been a popular topic here and we've had quite a bit of discussion regarding them. From that material, it would appear that the Montana Peak type of hat began to show up as a style, albeit unofficial one, in the 1890s at least. It was a popular style of hat with cowboys, and it appears to have spread into at least three armies, with the Canadian, New Zealand, and US armies all using it. The Canadian Army might get credit for the first use of it as an official style, although the New Zealand use seems pretty early also.

I've seen a variety of Spanish American War photos with that style of hat in use, although in the cases I can think of, the soldiers are state troopers or volunteers. This provides an interesting example of regulars using it. Also, I've seen several photos of regular troops using Montana Peak type hats prior to the official adoption, and with the creases done in the RCMP, as opposed to US Army, style. These also appear to be a bit broader brimmed. There's no official adoption of such a style that I'm aware of, so they must have been private purchase hats, or in some instances reshaped issue hats.

Pat

by **Todd** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:34 pm

by **stablesgt** » Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:34 pm

By the way, was there ever a plurality on where the photo was shot? I would say it was probably domestic and thus in Iowa from the earlier comments. The houses appear American and it looks like the troop is doing an exhibition for the local inhabitants (see middle lower background) at perhaps a county or state fair.

by **Step Tyner** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:09 pm

A great site and I am profiting immensely from all the erudition.

I heartily concur w/ Stable Sergeant as to Ft. Myer's being the site of the little charge in the snow. I was just there last week for a classmate's retirement, and Rader clinic seems about right on.

As regards the 11th Cav's charge, three observations:

1. From the white lawn dresses and parasols in the far background, this was probably some kind of exhibition, not a training exercise. That might excuse some of the route step behavior, particularly if there had been punch with the sandwiches beforehand.

2. It looks like the second rank of the troop on the viewer's far right (those still ascending the hill), are at a slow trot at best, or just initiating a gallop depart. The troop on the viewer's far left is doing just fine at a canter, but the first rank on the viewer's right is illustrating why axes of advance on operations maps are drawn as arrows: units of whatever branch assaulting up a hill will tend to converge near the summit. The less useful such concentration will be, the more likely it is to occur. Horses do it, people do it, heck, even armored vehicles do it (with driver help, of course). Again, the possibility of ardent spirits' having been available could explain, if not excuse. It's quite possible that the "talkers" are saying things like, "Your mount just rubbed alfalfa drool on my last clean pair of breaches!"

3. Just to the left of center, in foreground, is an officer or trooper giving new meaning to the term "behind the horse." It looks as if his charger has bolted. I wonder if the mounts got punch as well.

Great photo.

Step Tyner

by **Ron Smith** » Wed Jun 18, 2003 7:08 pm

That photo with canine was reject from the Army of One Campaign to draw up new recruiting posters.

Regards,
Ron Smith

by **elcutachero** » Tue Jun 24, 2003 12:27 pm

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Paul Scholtz
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jim Ottevaere
 Dusan,

Unfortunately I can offer nothing more on the history of this photo. I have had it in my collection for many years. The only identification is a faint date "1907" on the reverse and the "11" on the guidon. I confess that I have not done any research either, but on the original the background has a Ft Riley look to it, but that's only a guess. The 11th was in the Philipines in 1902 and on the Mexican border in 1916. So where were they in between? Anyone?

I was always facinated by the two troopers in the right foreground who do not have their sabers drawn and seem to be absorbed in a conversation as though they were on a trail ride or hack.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Jim,

Thanks so much for posting this picture, you know what an enthusiast I am on the 11th. I'll check the history, and that will take a few days since I am not home with my resources as yet (3 hours, three, count'em, until my son is married, Dad has never been so prepared and not ready for anything in his whole life!), but I believe the 11th had returned from the Phillipines at this time in America's military history and was stationed at either Ft. Myer Va or Ft. Ogelthorpe Ga, and I lean toward Ft. Myer, but I've never been to Georgia. I'll be with my Blackhorse Bookshelf by Tuesday. Allons!

At your(mounted)service,

Paul Scholtz
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I believe that is Lookout Mountain National Battlefield overlooking Chattanooga, TN. Fort Oglethorpe is right over the state line in Georgia.
The 11th I recall was sent to the border in 1915 or 16 and never returned. I also recall they had been sent to keep order in Colorado during the Colorado Fuel and Iron Strike in 1912. There was a book written by George McGovern. Yes, the presidential contender.

El Cutachero

by **Pat Holscher** » Fri Nov 19, 2010 8:46 pm

Pat Holscher wrote:The 115th Cav, Pole Mountain, 1930s.

Photo published by permission of the Wyoming State Archives, Department of Parks and Cultural Resources. Copying is strictly prohibited

Pat

Bumped up due to related thread.

by **Pat Holscher** » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:50 am

Pat Holscher wrote:The 115th Cav, Pole Mountain, 1930s.

Photo published by permission of the Wyoming State Archives, Department of Parks and Cultural Resources. Copying is strictly prohibited

Pat

Bumped up due to the Pole Mountain references.

by **Pat Holscher** » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:52 pm

British cavalry practicing the charge, WWI:

http://digital.nls.uk/first-world-war-o ... d=74548852

by **Pat Holscher** » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:11 am

Ft. Myers: