German influence of American Military Seat

[Philip S]

The short bio of Gen Edmund Gruber for an ebay uniform item mentions his attendance at a German Riding School and then instructorship in equitation at Ft. Riley. I wonder how influential German equitation was to the development of the “Military Seat.”

“He was then ordered to Germany as a student officer at the Imperial Military Riding School at Hanover. He served on that assignment until August 1912, when he was graduated. Returning to the United States, he was detailed to duty as an instructor in equitation at the Mounted Service School at Fort Riley, Kansas, until December 1912"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dl ... SS:US:1123

[mhminor]

You pose a great question, but I don't know how it could be answered without finding source material for the riding manuals. The French military school "Le Cadre Noir de Saumur" in France also was influencial. The French school still exists, and their exhibitions are truely amazing.

Not to complicate matters, but the "father" of the American huntseat was a expat white Russian, Vladimir Littauer.

[Pat Holscher]

You pose a great question, but I don't know how it could be answered without finding source material for the riding manuals. The French military school "Le Cadre Noir de Saumur" in France also was influencial. The French school still exists, and their exhibitions are truely amazing.

That's not really what Philip is exploring, however. The influence of Saumur, and the Italian riding schools, is well explored here and not contested. This raises, however, the question of the degree to which other European schools may have had some influence through officer exchanges, such as that noted.

Not to complicate matters, but the "father" of the American huntseat was a expat white Russian, Vladimir Littauer.

Can that degree of credit be extended to Littauer?

The Caprilli method, which Littauer, espoused, was already being taught in the US military by the time Littauer started teaching in the US in 1927. Littauer admitted that his understanding of Caprilli was poor prior to World War One, and he went into World War One having only really a basic if inaccurate understanding of it. That being the case, he probably didn't really come into it fully until after he immigrated to the US, by which time it was being experimented with extensively in the U.S. Army.

I think Littauer tends to be associated principally with dressage, but I could be in error.

[Philip S]

You are essentially correct on Littauer who was a great promoter of "the forward seat." He, however, was quite critical of dressage and one of his books has a chapter titled "Why collected gaits have no place in forward schooling." Littauer's books are quite good and did much to popularize the forward seat, balanced seat, military seat, or Chamberlin seat, etc. in the civilian show and hunt fields.

[Pat Holscher]

You are essentially correct on Littauer who was a great promoter of "the forward seat." He, however, was quite critical of dressage and one of his books has a chapter titled "Why collected gaits have no place in forward schooling." Littauer's books are quite good and did much to popularize the forward seat, balanced seat, military seat, or Chamberlin seat, etc. in the civilian show and hunt fields.

Thanks Phillip. I wonder to what extent Littauer may have been directly influenced by the U.S. Military Seat?

[Philip S]

Littauer was an admirer of Harry Chamberlin and recommended his books on the military seat.

In "Common Sense Horsemanship" Littauer mentioned that he and other young Russian officers experimented with the new Italian methods. One of the main inspirations of his youth was "The Italian Cavalry School and the New Method of Cross-Country Riding and the Teaching of It," by P.P. Rodzianko upon his return to Russia from Italy in 1911. However, they were not able to learn much just from studying pictures and the writing. The Russian army continued with its traditional ways.

[Pat Holscher]

Littauer was an admirer of Harry Chamberlin and recommended his books on the military seat.

In "Common Sense Horsemanship" Littauer mentioned that he and other young Russian officers experimented with the new Italian methods. One of the main inspirations of his youth was "The Italian Cavalry School and the New Method of Cross-Country Riding and the Teaching of It," by P.P. Rodzianko upon his return to Russia from Italy in 1911. However, they were not able to learn much just from studying pictures and the writing. The Russian army continued with its traditional ways.

He also discussed that in "Russian Hussar", noting that he and a fellow officer would practice what they thought was the Caprilli inspired seat, but at the time, what that principally meant to them is that they rode with shorter stirrups.

I haven't read any of his other books. I probably should look for them.

On the Russian seat of this period, an oddity is that they essentially had two different seats, as Cossacks were trained separately, thereby retaining their native seat. While I don't know a great deal about that, I'm under the impression that Cossacks, like some other native peoples, used a relatively short stirrup, so the Russians may have had a seat generally of that type available to them, but for their non Cossack cavalry, they rejected it.

[Joseph Sullivan]

While our officers went to several foreign cavalry schools, the only one with really material influence was the French. As a matter of fact, virtually if not absolutely all of our instructional manuals, stopping only with the LATER editions of Horsemanship and Horsemastership were direct translations from the French, or mostly so. Jim Ottevaere has copies of many of them in both languages and, being flient in both, has compared and confirmed.

[mhminor]

While our officers went to several foreign cavalry schools, the only one with really material influence was the French. As a matter of fact, virtually if not absolutely all of our instructional manuals, stopping only with the LATER editions of Horsemanship and Horsemastership were direct translations from the French, or mostly so. Jim Ottevaere has copies of many of them in both languages and, being flient in both, has compared and confirmed.

Spot on, Joseph. I have anecdotal evedence of the French influence on American military riding, but nothing concrete. The only way to truely identify enfluences is through a line by line comparison of riding manuals. I would appreciate any information on obtaining original copies, as I am a collector.

On a seperate note, Littauer was the "inventor" of the crest release because his "lazy" American civilian clients didn't want to take the time to learn a proper balanced seat and in turn learn to "jump out of hand". Hence he created a short cut which allowed riders to stay off a horses mouth without developing an independent seat. Littauer taught the crest release to Gordon Wright and eventually George Morris in the fifties.

By the way, does anyone have a bio on Gordon Wright's military experience at Fort Riley? I have several first editions written by him, and they mention his affiliation, but no detail.

[Philip S]

A relatively common Fort Riley publication is an English translation of “Notes on Equitation and Horse Training in Answer to the Examination Questions at the School of Application for Cavalry at Saumur France.” Oddly, this actually was for a time the official cavalry training manual.

General Orders No. 186, November 23, 1908 required that the course of instruction be based on that of the Mounted Service School (Fort Riley). Prior to that, in October 1907, the army had formally adopted the “French system” of riding instruction. Since officers were asking for the applicable manual it was decided to simply publish a translation of the French manual until such a time as experience with the French system would allow an appropriate American manual to be published.


I would also like to know Gordon Wright's experiences at Ft. Riley. All I know is that he graduated from the Cavalry School during WWII.

[Philip S]

I found this biography of Gordon Wright. He had a very eventful life:
http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/0 ... on-wright/

[Philip S]

I did not know that Olympic rider William Steinkaus had also been in the cavalry during WWII:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Steinkraus

[Philip S]

Steinkraus’s comments on the French and German schools of riding theory. The effect of different breeds of horses is important. I have long thought that the American military seat was developed for a thoroughbred cross and doesn’t work as well for a warmblood with less impulsion:

Like George Morris, William Steinkraus absorbed the dual influences of the French school through the US Army, and the German thinking of the post War era, headed up by Bertalan de Némethy. He has an interesting slant on reconciling the two:

“German equestrian literature and much German teaching suggest that the hands should do no more than hold the reins, and that you should influence the horse almost entirely through your legs. The French, on the other hand, describe a wide variety of different rein effects and attach great importance to them, while acknowledging the importance of always supporting and coordinating them with the actions of the legs. The contradiction may be more apparent than real, because the best German riders use their hands a lot, even though their basic methods tend to presuppose the German type of horse that has less natural impulsion (therefore requiring stronger leg actions) than the Anglo-Arab and Selle Français strains preferred by the French, or the Anglo-American Thoroughbred. Having learned a lot from studying both approaches, I do not consider them impossible to reconcile. Good hands will be stable (rather than unsteady); interesting (rather than boring or stupid); refined (rather than crude or clumsy); and fair (rather than arbitrary or punitive).”

One thing William Steinkraus keeps from the French tradition is the dictum that once the horse is doing what you want it to do, you stop doing anything:

“I cannot stress too much the vital importance of restoring all aids to their normal state as soon as the horse has complied with them. Once the horse has gone forward, ease up on your driving aids; once it has shortened, open your fingers again enough to reward. It is very common to see exactly the opposite: the rider gets the horse to come back once, but never releases his closed fingers again, and spends the rest of the hour hanging in the horse’s mouth, or, having gotten the horse to go forward, spends the rest of the day with his legs stuck halfway through the horse. The reason you want your aids to be effective is so that you can teach the horse to respond to them more and more sensitively – and so that you can use them less and less. The old expression ‘crude but effective’ is thus a contradiction in terms as applied to riding; means aids that are truly effective are also economical, and economy is essentially attractive and never crude.”

http://www.horsemagazine.com/thm/2010/0 ... teinkraus/

[Pat Holscher]

While our officers went to several foreign cavalry schools, the only one with really material influence was the French. As a matter of fact, virtually if not absolutely all of our instructional manuals, stopping only with the LATER editions of Horsemanship and Horsemastership were direct translations from the French, or mostly so. Jim Ottevaere has copies of many of them in both languages and, being flient in both, has compared and confirmed.

Spot on, Joseph. I have anecdotal evedence of the French influence on American military riding, but nothing concrete. The only way to truely identify enfluences is through a line by line comparison of riding manuals. I would appreciate any information on obtaining original copies, as I am a collector.

Jim Ott's book on the American Military Seat is a good place to go to for the history of the American Military Seat and the influences that went into it.

[Ron Smith]

The US Army "required Field grade officers" to attend Saumur as part of their training, this was post WWI pre WWII. There was interaction with the Russian chool post WWI but from what I remember it was limited and not on a formal basis as approved by the Mounted Services School.

Second to Saumur were the Italian schools and the greatest interaction was predominantly French/Italian. Bear in mind that in the 1920's-30s professional military horsemen from Europe and the United States trained together quite a lot in both formal and informal programs.

I must admit that I am a bit rusty on some of this now as I don't remember all the details like I used to and I have not cracked a book on this information in some time.

We have had some lengthy discussions on this on the Forum and at Conlaves as well as various pieces that a number of forum members have written. Perhaps I can dig some info up and expand a bit farther.

[Pat Holscher]

We have had some lengthy discussions on this on the Forum and at Conlaves as well as various pieces that a number of forum members have written. Perhaps I can dig some info up and expand a bit farther.

Indeed there are some detailed earlier threads. Some are probably on older forum variants and might not be up anymore, as it was a very popular and explored topic here at one time.

[mhminor]

I am new to the wrold of forums - is there anyway to "warehouse" some of these topic discussions? There is a lot of good information here that shouldn't be lost. Thanks!

[Pat Holscher]

I am new to the wrold of forums - is there anyway to "warehouse" some of these topic discussions? There is a lot of good information here that shouldn't be lost. Thanks!

We all agree with you on that.

One thing that probably isn't apparent to more recent participants is that this website is over a decade old. It had been around for quite awhile before I made my first post. I'm sure Todd, our founder, knows but I think we got started some time in the 1990s.

An impact of this is that the forum has has evolved to new programs and new hosters something like a half a dozen times. Forum Archives were introduced early on but in the most recent variants, because the programs hold a lot more and work differently (I think) the archives are no longer a feature. What that means, however, is that when you look back and see a post from 2001 or so that appears old, it's actually one that appears here on the "new" forum.

One sad fact is that some really great threads appeared on earlier variants of the forum that are known to long participants but not to newer ones. There must have been a half dozen or more on Saumar. There were probably a dozen or more on riding techniques that were highly developed and featured the input of such people as Jim Ott, who are masters in the field. There was a great one I can recall on saddle fitting. Because a lot of these threads were so good, and so highly developed, I actually think that those who contributed to them tend not to repost that information, recalling that it was there, and figuring that those hunting for it will find and benefit from what was placed in those threads, probably not realizing that most of the four or five prior forum variants are presently not up for reading.

I think all this data is saved but I don't know if there's a way to easily re post it as a searchable feature. Maybe Todd can give us his opinion?

[mhminor]

That would be great - if there was any way that topics could be "lumped" together, like in a file system - what a gold mine of information. I've noticed that you refer to previous posts, but the time needed to sift through decades of discussion would be huge - worthwhile, I'm sure, but time consuming.