At the JFK Special Warfare Center

[Pat Holscher]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/soldiersme ... otostream/

[rayarthart]

Who said that the horse as a part of combat was dead?

I would love to see any publications that the Special Warfare is using to train the men.

[Kentucky Horseman]

That is a cool picture, and I am surprised that look like a wade tree ranch saddle, those are fairly heavy saddles. I would have firgured on seeing almost any other type of saddle than a ranch saddle.

Patton made a statement about we need to keep a couple of regiments of cavalry around for mountains, where armor wasn't as effective as it was in other places. Some other countries are now using horses more and more. i would say the day of the horse soldier is not over yet.

[Kelton Oliver]

This is just a guess, but the use of a ranch saddle may simply be due to using what they could get. It may also be influenced by who purchases it. By that, I mean that the purchase of horse equipment may be done by whomever the Army has available who has experience with horses and those may be mostly ex-rodeo and ex-ranch cowboys. In general, I'd consider a modern ranch saddle to be less than optimal for military use but I'm sure it could be made to serve. Both men and horses are built differently than they were in 1928 and I'd bet the McClellan would have to be re-sized to the purpose, but (in my opinion and certainly subject to debate) the McClellan was just about ideal. However, given budgetary constraints, I'm sure the Army has to use some off-the-shelf solution.

[Kelton Oliver]

By the way, I wonder why they cut off so much of the horse's tail? He can't swat flies with that nub.

[Steve Haupt]

Greetings,
Without a comment from JFK SWC I'd surmise that this was a course to introduce troops to horses.Carrying arms and rucksack while mounted would make for stiff back and hips as well as changing one's center of balance.That nub of a tail is the result of the horse being an Appalosa, no cutting necessary.Remember that horn is not just for honking either.
Cheers,
Steve Haupt
http://HauptsValleyFarm.mystarband.net

[Brian P.]

An Appaloosa is not what I would pick for a war horse. I hope that they're making better choices for combat situations. There is a reason why they used to turn away light colored horses at the remount depots. All I see in that picture is a great big TARGET silhouetted against that green background!

[Kentucky Horseman]

An Appaloosa is not what I would pick for a war horse. I hope that they're making better choices for combat situations. There is a reason why they used to turn away light colored horses at the remount depots. All I see in that picture is a great big TARGET silhouetted against that green background!

I understand and I agree with your point about light coated horses, however in certain areas like in the mountains of Afghanstan, they might not stand out as much as a bay or other dark coated horse. I am sure that photo is from a training center at Fort Bragg.

[Pat Holscher]

Who said that the horse as a part of combat was dead?

I would love to see any publications that the Special Warfare is using to train the men.

Sam put up a technical manual awhile back. It doesn't cover training, just use.

[Pat Holscher]

That is a cool picture, and I am surprised that look like a wade tree ranch saddle, those are fairly heavy saddles. I would have firgured on seeing almost any other type of saddle than a ranch saddle.

Patton made a statement about we need to keep a couple of regiments of cavalry around for mountains, where armor wasn't as effective as it was in other places. Some other countries are now using horses more and more. i would say the day of the horse soldier is not over yet.

Photos from the USMC packers school in California also show Western saddles in use.

This probably is reflective of the fact that they're fairly common, and there is no longer a purpose built military saddle in the inventory. Otherwise, I'd agree that it is not the idea choice.

[Pat Holscher]

Greetings,
Without a comment from JFK SWC I'd surmise that this was a course to introduce troops to horses.Carrying arms and rucksack while mounted would make for stiff back and hips as well as changing one's center of balance.That nub of a tail is the result of the horse being an Appalosa, no cutting necessary.Remember that horn is not just for honking either.
Cheers,
Steve Haupt
http://HauptsValleyFarm.mystarband.net

Probably right.

I have to say that the thing that surprised me the most was to see this heavy ruck being carried by a mounted soldier. There's no easy way to sling a ruck like this on a horse, really, but this is far less than ideal for a mounted man. It really argues for some lighter sort of ruck of a different design if there's any chance that the soldier might need to ride.

I'd note that photos of mounted SF men in Afghanistan show no ruck being carried.

[Pat Holscher]

An Appaloosa is not what I would pick for a war horse. I hope that they're making better choices for combat situations. There is a reason why they used to turn away light colored horses at the remount depots. All I see in that picture is a great big TARGET silhouetted against that green background!

Those same factors, however, might make a horse of this color the ideal horse for troops just being introduced to horses. You should be able to figure out where they are, if necessary, at a distance.

[Kelton Oliver]

In a training environment -- which this apparently is -- the temperament of the horse is important but the color isn't. It's true that Appaloosas have a reputation for being flighty, but that doesn't necessarily apply to every one of them. Training environment or not, that rucksack looks to me like an unscheduled dismount just waiting to happen.

[Pat Holscher]

Training environment or not, that rucksack looks to me like an unscheduled dismount just waiting to happen.

I agree. Carrying a massive ruck like that while mounted is self defeating.

[selewis]

An Appaloosa is not what I would pick for a war horse. I hope that they're making better choices for combat situations. There is a reason why they used to turn away light colored horses at the remount depots. All I see in that picture is a great big TARGET silhouetted against that green background!

Those same factors, however, might make a horse of this color the ideal horse for troops just being introduced to horses. You should be able to figure out where they are, if necessary, at a distance.

Though perhaps not applicable in this case, there is another aspect to this. Colors and patterns that, up close, would seem loud and easily seen can blend in at a distance. It took me twenty minutes one time to find a friends black and white pinto that was tied to a scrub cedar tree in plain sight on a hill side. The distance was about a mile and I knew about where he had to be. Once I spotted him I was amazed that so much chrome could melt into the fairly barren country so well.

Sandy

[roy elderkin]

Hi all It comes as a suprise to me, that the country that invented the one peice jacket or flack jacket did not re design and used it. It looks and other comments tend me to believe that the rider will be over weight and unbalanced. Surely the object has always been that to ride as light as possible, this intern increases everything else I will not bore you with the rest of it. Grey's who adopted and adapted this form of webbing, which has been copied by others would have been fit for purpose. There does not seem to be any learning from history on this.

[Pat Holscher]

Hi all It comes as a suprise to me, that the country that invented the one peice jacket or flack jacket did not re design and used it. It looks and other comments tend me to believe that the rider will be over weight and unbalanced. Surely the object has always been that to ride as light as possible, this intern increases everything else I will not bore you with the rest of it. Grey's who adopted and adapted this form of webbing, which has been copied by others would have been fit for purpose. There does not seem to be any learning from history on this.

I think that the answer to the jacket item is that this training is probably supposed to train a soldier for an unusual role, which he would not normally occupy. That is, he's probably normally a leg SF guy, who now has been supplied with a horse, and they're trying to train him to use it.

Still, that doesn't really provide a satisfactory answer, as this ruck is obviously too large for a mounted man (and maybe really for a walking man) and is entirely unsuitable for what we see here. This would have to be a pretty short, walking, ride. No group of mounted men would every try to ride so encumbered, and certainly even heavily laden mounted forces don't burden the rider with such a large pack. In the real world, I don't see a soldier like this choosing to actually wear his pack if he's going to ride. It's just too big, and it would be too big of a pain. In a lot of ways, it defeats the purpose of riding entirely. It's a little disturbing to see somebody being trained to ride with a pack of that type.

Perhaps the one not so odd thing in this photo is that his rifle appears to be accessible, which does show some practical thought there.

[Tom Muller]

You guys said it all. Still a few comments. The stirrups are way too long, and his chest webbing is sitting way too low. It'll press into the blokes abdomen and cause lots of discomfort if he rides any longer. It should sit much higher, on his chest, as the name indicates. That pack would not just be uncomfortable, but chafe his back open to his spine. Not talking about the heavy load and a very unbalanced seat. Roy is right, why do people never look into the past (which in this case isn't too far off)?

Tom

[BobH]

Every time perfectly good 'wheel' gets re-invented, it requires relearning lost lessons.
I'd agree that the Appy isn't headed down range, just the trooper, and that the course is designed to prep folks for (Afghan) Mountain warfare ops. See:

http://www.dvidshub.net/image/458520/mo ... 5WaA9mibE0

and more links on this JFKWC search: http://www.dvidshub.net/search/?filter[unit]=USAJFKSWCS&q=horse&page=4#.T5WZ9NmibE0

I'd wager the horse, while still a partner, is less like the cavalry use and more like a 'ride to the fight.' Expedient use, in some ways, for some pf the crappiest walking terrain in the world (except for jungle - jungles suck, and yes that's a personal bias).

This training unit is out at Fort Carson, CO., so all the western gear makes sense: all locally available and easily repaired & maintained. Maybe more to the point, it's what the horses already know. Down range, I wonder if they're using saddles we bring in or if the use indigenous Afghan rigs - a whole 'nuther issue.

Bob Hillery
Stratham, NH

[Sam Cox]

An Australian friend of mine (a member of SOCOM) undertook this US Course last year

The animals are used as transport only and they recieved no instruction in riding or packing,he allready covered these skills with the USMC in 2006

At the same time as he went thru this course there was Geman navy and Royal Marine Commandos on the same course