pistol lanyards

[Kelton Oliver]

You could be right, Pat. It's possible that having a son and a daughter-in-law in the Army makes it difficult for me to be objective here.

[Pat Holscher]

You could be right, Pat. It's possible that having a son and a daughter-in-law in the Army makes it difficult for me to be objective here.

I'm sure that's' true. As noted, if a soldier wanted to carry his own sidearms, I'd let him, as long as the ammunition didn't run afoul of the conventions. I suppose that might be a problem, as when this was last common there wasn't that much variety in handgun ammunition, and now there is. But, if a soldier wanted to pack his own M1911, or whatever, what the heck. As you noted, any use of a handgun tends to suggest a personal desperate military emergency, but in that situation, if a soldier wants to add to his arsenal, so be it.

Pat

[HawkHero]

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN08000 ... N08148.JPG

Here's a Runyon photo of a soldier with sword and pistol on lanyard. It looks like he has the M-1905 cartridge belt and is carrying a revolver.

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN08000 ... N08147.JPG

Another soldier, add suspenders and M1903 rifle. He has a lanyard on his pistol, too. I noticed a few pictures of guys wearing canvas leggins that were made like the leather ones with a strap that spiraled around the leg.

--Brian

[Pat Holscher]

FWIW, in WWI British officers were expected to supply their own sidearms, as they had been for many years. For that reason, there's a lot of variety in what British officers carried. They were supposed to use .455, which was nearly the only requirement, but you can see examples where this wasn't adhered to. The M1911 saw some purchases from British officers, and both T. E. Lawrence and one of his brothers purchased M1911s which they carried during WWI.

According to the most recent issue of the American Rifleman, T. E. Lawrence also carried the Colt M1873 (Peace Maker) at some point. I don't know in what cartridge, if this is correct. I sort of question if this is correct, and if the author had confused the M1911 with the M1873, both being .45s, albeit completely different .45s with wholly non compatible cartridges.

[bisley45]

FWIW, in WWI British officers were expected to supply their own sidearms, as they had been for many years. For that reason, there's a lot of variety in what British officers carried. They were supposed to use .455, which was nearly the only requirement, but you can see examples where this wasn't adhered to. The M1911 saw some purchases from British officers, and both T. E. Lawrence and one of his brothers purchased M1911s which they carried during WWI.

According to the most recent issue of the American Rifleman, T. E. Lawrence also carried the Colt M1873 (Peace Maker) at some point. I don't know in what cartridge, if this is correct. I sort of question if this is correct, and if the author had confused the M1911 with the M1873, both being .45s, albeit completely different .45s with wholly non compatible cartridges.

I suspect you're right, Pat, though some Peacemakers actually made it to England under Lend-Lease. USPA had a re-creation of that model in its catalog not long ago.

I don't recall Lawrence mentioning a 1911 in "Seven Pillars," but he didn't mention his brother much, either.

[Pat Holscher]

I don't recall Lawrence mentioning a 1911 in "Seven Pillars," but he didn't mention his brother much, either.

Indeed Seven Pillars is remarkably devoid of any weapons information. That's not accidental, as Lawrence's success in the desert was based in part on the use of guerrilla tactics and automatic weapons. He feared that publishing the details would cause his example to be copied, and he didn't want to be responsible for the results of that. As it was, he was haunted by World War One for the rest of his life, which left him psychologically broken.

While I suppose it is possible that Lawrence carried a Peacemaker, I really doubt it. The movie image of Lawrence leaves out the part of his personality that absorbed small arms information. He carried a SMLE quite a bit, and was so physicallly strong that he used to make a show of grabbing it by the muzzle and raising his arm straight with his shoulder while grasping it, which would require a great deal of strength (and is monumentally a bad example of weapons handling). He and his brother both definitely carried M1911s. He seems to have had at least two .455 Webley revolvers as well, including one that he did give to the Arab guide who was killed en route to his joining the Arab Rebellion. Anticipating the future, however, he also made personal use of the machinegun which was mounted on the top wing of WWI British aircraft, as did others in the Arab army. That would be a difficult thing to do, but it was essentially using that gun in the automatic rifle role.

[Pat Holscher]

Periodically some of us have discussed the use and style of Lanyards for 20th century Cavalry/Horse Artillery riders. There are few specimens around to look hard at although we have a couple here.

This weekend I was looking through a Life magazine from 1942, I do not remember the month if issue, but it has a Cavalryman on the front and a good story of the 1st Cav. Division at Ft. Bliss inside.

I know that there were two different Lanyards in use and issued but it has been hard ot prove since Steffen does not show it so therefore I am considered wrong, and maybe this thread will prove I am, but...

The Trooper pictured is wearing two lanyards, one around the waist attached to the pistol, and one around the shoulder attached to the magazines. There was a mag lanyard built with a spilt tail and two clips on it. (Couvi, Kieran saw one at Ft. Sill) I passed one up at the Houston Gun Show a few years ago like a fool. The pistol lanyard was built with only one clip as we all know.

The Pistol Lanyard was worn around the waist not the shoulder, if on the waist it did not interfere with removal from the holster and employment of the weapon. Also the mag lanyard and pistol lanyard did not become entangled by placing them this way.

Has anyone seen any number of the mag lanyards listed in any manner?

Regards,
Ron Smith

Bumped up due to related thread.

[Pat Holscher]

Ron,
Your seeing a double snapped lanyard is an interesting observation that confirms a suspicion that I have long had but have been unable to find any official reference to. I have assumed that the .45 magazines with loops were intended to be attached to a lanyard because period cavalry comment was concerned with the possibility of losing them whilst mounted. Howver I have not seen any official (or unofficial, come to think of it) to the double snap lanyard. I'm morally sure it existed as an issue item for a short time and would love to find some information concerning it - and to get a look at one!
Dušan.

[Pat Holscher]

More haste, less speed! I should learn to preview my posts!The above sloppy sentence :"Howver I have not seen any official (or unofficial, come to think of it) to the double snap lanyard.", should have read :" However, I have not seen any official (or unofficial, come to think of it)reference to the double snap lanyard."
My apologies,
Dušan

[Pat Holscher]

Ron
I have to differ with you regarding the April 1941 Life mag photo of the corporal standing on the hillock or the one on the cover. The cord around their waists is the tie down for their gasmask bags.

I took that LIFE to the 1986 or 1988 Cavalry Association annual convention to use as an interview aid. There were still a lot of horse EMs attending back then. The waist cord mystified me as well as how troopers managed to change mags half way thru the qualification course. I had presumed that the first mag was on a lanyard and just released to flop around during the remainder of the run.

The findings were: the troopers recalled no mags with lanyard loops; lanyard was only connected to the pistol butt; trooper started qualification course with one mag locked in and the second shoved in his belt for easy retrieval; first mag was simply released to fall on the ground; with reins and pistol in one hand, the second mag retrieved and inserted.

None of the troopers could figure out what the cord around the waist was. They all thought it was a lanyard but had no idea what it was doing there.

In the process of acquiring everything worn by the corporal on the hillock in the 1941 LIFE mag, I finally got at least an empty gasmask bag of that type. That mystery waist cord is sewn in place on the back of the bag like two very long shoe strings.

I have seen only three types of post 1900 lanyards, the 1904 with japaned snaphook sewn into leather at the end of the cord; the WWI version where snaphook is attached to cord by a crimped metal sleeve; and, a WWII version usually attributed to USMC with a plain big fishhook attached by leather.

Does anyone have any idea when the M1911 mags with the lanyard loop got replaced by the no loop mag? Maybe when the M1911A1 came out?

[Pat Holscher]

Hello: Interesting topic here. I have never seen a double snapped lanyard and would sure like to see one or a pic of one. On Stablesgt's post, the question was posed as to when the lanyard loop mags were changed to the plain bottom mags. That occurred around 1916 more or less. Without checking my research materials at home (which probably guarantees I'll be wrong now), I think it occurred around serial number 130,000. Also, there is another type of lanyard that was not mentioned in the earlier post (unless it is the one attributed to the USMC). It is the one manufactured by Hickok in WW2 and so dated on the leather chape. The USMC lanyard I am familiar with has no leather and is green woven fabric with no markings. Most USMC collectors believe that it is indeed USMC WW2 issue, but so far I have never encountered any written evidence proving that. If I get a chance to maybe I'll dig up my lanyards and post a pic of them. Regards to all, Charlie

[Pat Holscher]

I may well be wrong but slim evidence suggests I "might" be right. Your info on the mask bag line makes sense. I have never found any documentation on this mystery cord.

There is a split Lanyard in the archives at Ft. Sill and "maybe" we can find it again. But if it is not for the 1911 magazine, then what is it for? Some of the vets I have interviewed say the same as the ines you spoke with about belting the next magazine.

Regards,
Ron Smith

[Pat Holscher]

Cavalry Drill Regulations, 1916, Manual of the Pistol:

"When a lanyard is used the snaps are attached to the butt of the pistol and the magazine, the lanyard is passed over the head and the sliding loop drawn snug against the right armpit. The lanyard should then be of just such length that the arm can be extended without constraint."

This indicates that the "M1912" lanyard had 2 snap hooks. I expect that it was identical to the M1904 but with a leather mounted japaned snap hook on each end of the cord. Used as indicated, the spent magazine would be ejected and suspended from one end of the lanyard depending from the sliding loop under the right arm pit. In a mounted pistol charge, I doubt if it was expected to use more than a second magazine or to move the magazine lanyard to the new magazine in the pistol. Around 1915, the loop on the magazine was discontinued, but looped mags continued in service.

[Pat Holscher]

Ron,

All I have been able to uncover is the pistol lanyard with two cords ending in a single hook. No one seems to have heard of the "Two-Row" pistol lanyard. See enclosed from the Ordnance Museum:

Ordnance Bulletin No. 1719</u>, <u>Horse Equipments and Equipments for Officers and Enlisted Men</u>, May 10, 1905 (revised July 3, 1908). Page 45, Revolver lanyards; the parts are:

1 body.
1 sliding hoop.
1 chape.
1 bag snap hook

For officers the body is made from russet leather 6 or 7 ounces per square foot, cut and braided around a core of chalk line so as to form a cord. The cord is doubled, provided with a sliding loop, and the ends fastened to a 5/8-inch bronze bag snap-hook by a chape of 8 to 9 ounce russet collar leather.

For enlisted men the body is made from No.5 olive-drab sash cord with sliding loop of leather covered with thread to match. The ends are fastened to a 5/8-inch brown japanned bag snap hook by a russet leather chape, to which they strongly stitched.

Couvi

[Trooper]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1938-Corporal-R ... 4164f19a11

Enlargement shows a lanyard in use.

[Pat Holscher]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1938-Corporal-RC-Newkirk-Grenadier-Cavalry-Horse-Show-Wire-Photo-/280866429457?pt=Art_Photo_Images&hash=item4164f19a11

Enlargement shows a lanyard in use.

What is he wearing on his right hand?

[Rick Throckmorton]

Pat,
I think what your are seeing is that he has a glove (ending at the wrist) on his right hand, and also, you are seeing the end of the reins that have flipped up during the jump. The end of the reins just happen to be postitioned right at the same height as the Corporal's hand when the photo was taken.
Rick T

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,
I think what your are seeing is that he has a glove (ending at the wrist) on his right hand, and also, you are seeing the end of the reins that have flipped up during the jump. The end of the reins just happen to be postitioned right at the same height as the Corporal's hand when the photo was taken.
Rick T

Thanks. That combo confused me and it almost looked like some sort of a splint.