WWI British cavalry 90 round bandolier (And Boer War kit)

[Pat Holscher]

Gentlemen: John M might be able to identify exactly when the mounted pouches with which we are familiar came into service but the Canadian bandoliers that I have seen from the Boer war period have all been of the looped variety.
Interestingly one complaint about the pouches seen in the last of Pat's photos was that they were difficult to get at when troops were in the prone position.
Larry

I don't know anything about British bandoleers at all (John M gave me a source to follow up on, whom hopefully can shed some light on this topic), but loops would make sense prior to the adoption of stripper clips. British soldiers would have had to have loaded their rifles with single rounds.

[Pat Holscher]

Stripper clip attributed to Boer War:

http://www.victorianwars.com/viewtopic. ... son#p11697

[Pat Holscher]

John Morgan has been in contact with the individual who send the information below. This post is very informative, to say the least.

Thank you for your enquiry. Surprisingly, the link below does work for me, although I'm not a member. Now that I've looked, the thread seems to concern only Patt. 1903 B.E.. I am therefore puzzled as to what "...good information..." might encompass? The thread does not concern accoutrements from the Boer War, at least that I could see...?

Karkeeweb has a section on Patt. '03 bandoliers at

http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1903/ ... liers.html

We are in the process of looking at upgrading the whole B.E. section, but our brief limits us to items worn on the man, so excludes saddlery and therefore "derived" additions, such as the "neck bandolier". Our coverage is much the same as that on the Forum thread though.

John & I have discussed his interesting variant, posted on your thread, apparently with Far East connections. It's a type unknown to me and looks to be what the Army term a Local Pattern. The buckle is a non-standard fitting, being used expediently, rather than correctly. Beyond the observations I made to John, e.g. only half the standard number of rivets used, there was little to add. The term Local Pattern necessarily means that if documentation did exist, it would only be at unit level and the military system of War Office documentation would never cover it, just as it does not cover Territorial Force and Yeomanry accoutrements.

As one comment in your Forum observes, a 90 rd B.E. bdr falls off, if the horse puts its head down! In 1920, there was a listing for Straps, steadying, bandolier, horse, but its form is unknown and the listing was for emergency stores introduced during the Great War, most of which were N.I.V.. In that it was in Section 1a, rather than the Section concerned with Saddlery, I would certainly associate it with the B.E. bdr being used on a horse. Its nomenclature certainly suggests a means of securing a man's bdr back to the saddle, if worn round the animal's neck. It would be complete speculation as to how complex, or simple this was - one strap secured back to the Wallets, or a pair attached on either side of the front arch. The strap was priced at 1/-, which was the same as a Pocket, 10 rounds, unmade, with stud and without guard strap for bandolier. A fair bit of leather was entailed in a pocket, so a Strap costing the same would suggest either complexity, or amount of material, but that is all that can be deduced.

I do have a genuine horse's neck bandolier, for 60 rounds, but with two more in-line gusseted pockets - for more ammunition perhaps? It is provided with straps to secure it back to the saddle. In construction, it looks totally "British", BUT with not a single marking, it cannot be confirmed as British Army issue, or indeed any Empire army. It does not appear in any official W.O. document that I have encountered. It may just be a British export to another man's army! Portugal has been one suggestion, but without supporting evidence. It has certainly not shown up in any photograph so far. I have not photographed my example, so the attached were "stolen" off eBay and is identical to mine. It was only the second example I'd ever seen, but I think I've seen a third on eBay since then. None were stated as having markings.

If your use of "Boer War" means bandoliers earlier than Patt. '03 B.E., then Karkeeweb has yet to cover what is actually a huge topic. I would have to observe that, in no instance I know of, was a man's bandolier placed around the horse's neck. In the meantime I have e-mailed a contact in South Africa, who has covered the subject in two Studies for their Re-enactment Group. I have asked for his permission to forward his work to your Society, if it is now to receive a wider circulation through your web site and await his reply.

Yours sincerely,

Rog Dennis

[hbtoday98]

MORE EQUIPMENTS

[hbtoday98]

Must be these Mexican saddles the British did like North West Canadian Riders

[hbtoday98]

The weight of the gear empty cases, stripper clips it a big jump Iam glad that I don't have to mount rifle in hand ANZAC DAY 2010.

[John M]

These extracts from .."Reports on Equipment in South Africa..1899-1901" may be of interest in relation to the present thread?[img][/url][/img]

[John M]

an attempt o enlarge previous post[img][/url][/img]

[Pat Holscher]

As a preview of coming attractions, we've acquired some great stuff to post here, but it may be the end of the week before I do so. I may also try to separate the Boer material, as we have some great stuff on that to post.

[Pat Holscher]

Must be these Mexican saddles the British did like North West Canadian Riders

I missed this photograph before, it's a neat one. I wish it was clearer.

These indeed are Canadians, given the Western stock saddles. Interesting details otherwise. Any chance at all of getting a clearer image? It might make for an interesting thread in its own right.

[Pat Holscher]

Rog DennisYour readers may be interested in a short paragraph that I wrote, which appears in Karkee Web, under the sub-heading Bandolier, cotton, 50 rounds. This was to set that product in the historical context of what occurred during the Boer War. This is at http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1937/ ... slung.html.

The subject of bandoliers is huge and a Forum is very much not the place to even attempt setting these out. Do you separately bring together all these thread comments into a more coherent summary? I note the Society's present "Western" emphasis is to be enlarged to include the British U.P. Saddles. Bandoliers do not seem to have featured in the U.S. Cavalry until the 20thC, when a webbing version was produced by the Mills Woven Cartridge Belt Company. As a Brit, U.S. accoutrements are very much of interest to me, but are not my area of expertise! However, for the cavalry and Mounted Infantry of the Britsh and Empire Armies, bandoliers of many forms were very much the trademark of cavalry and Yeomanry, from the latter part of the 19thC until well into the 20th.

Within Karkee Web, we already cover the Patt. 1940 Cavalry W.E. at http://www.karkeeweb.com/1940main.html and I am in the process of considerably enlarging the coverage of the experimental webbing patterns which preceded Patt. '40. These are currently only outlined under http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1940/ ... story.html. Sadly, only Spain adopted a M.E.Co. cavalry W.E., covered at http://www.karkeeweb.com/patterns/1940/ ... nents.html The British Army's adoption of Patt. '40 was very much against the trend of mechanisation! However, the formation of the 1st Cavalry Division, for service in the Middle East during the Second World War, saw the pre-Great War designs dusted-off and put into production. It has to be said that our cavalry stuck to Bandolier Equipment, if the photographic evidence is anything to go by! However, we do show personnel of the Trans Jordan Frontier Force, also the Indian Army, wearing webbing in the Introduction to Patt. '40.

[hbtoday98]

more photos