Selling the British horses after World War One

[Pat Holscher]

As well as the soldiers the army had over half a million surplus horse and mules to dispose of. Remount Ships brought 10,000 horses a week back from France and they were entrained to Remount Depots throughout the country for quarantine and sale to the public. Only those in the very worst condition were shot in France. Some were even sold to the Germans as long as they paid in neutral currency.

A scheme was established so officers and men who’d sold their horses to the army could buy them back. This was extended so soldiers who’d worked with an animal would be advised when it came up for auction so they or their representatives could buy it. Trooper Huggins of the Oxfordshire Hussars, who’d ridden “Billy” throughout the war, travelled to Newmarket especially to find him, paying 50 guineas. He rode him home from the local station and kept him on his farm writing "we had him for years and years on the farm…he ended his days in clover".

One sale, at the Army Remount Depot at Ormskirk in 1919, advertised 300 Heavy Draught, 350 Light Draught, 60 Riding and Driving animals and 100 Strong Light Draught Mules for sale, saying that they were mostly repatriated from France and in good working condition.
Thousands of horses sent to the Middle East with the Australians couldn’t be returned because of Australia’s strict quarantine laws. Though some were shot the majority were sent to India to work with the army there.

Courtesy of Phil Tomaselli via the World War One List

[Philip S]

Related comments to the movie review of “War Horse” in the London Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film ... eview.html

My grandfather aged 16 went to the first world war as a horse keeper then found himself having to take ammunition to the front line. he saw many of his horses die along with the young soldiers and he never got over it, never spoke about it until in his 80's and then only briefly. The bond he had with his horses got him through it. I cant even read about the film without getting upset so God knows what I'll be like watching the film. Its one to watch at home on my own I think.
1.

During WW2, my WWI veteran grandfather sold my mother's hunter to a chap masquerading as a private buyer, only to find he was buying to sell on to the military. He spent a long time trying to find the horse and buy it back because he had seen what happened to war horses.
I don't think I could bear to watch this movie, I should sob from start to finish.
1.

[Philip S]

Related comments from the British National Army website on a "War Horse" exhibition:
http://www.nam.ac.uk/microsites/war-hor ... /#comments

Isobel Bassett
1. Posted 4 October 2011 at 9.10am
My father was a Veterinary Surgeon during the 1914-18 war; he also talked about the wonderful work done by the mules throughout. I hope to get to the exhibition.

Hazel Wass
1. Posted 22 October 2011 at 1.15pm
My Dad was in the Cavalry in World War !.- 4th Royal Irish Dragoon Guards. He never mentioned the horses to me, but after he died in 1975 I found a picture, which he had kept in his wallet all those years, of him in uniform age 17yrs on the most beautiful horse. The picture spoke volumes. So glad for Dad’s sake, that at last, what the horses did is being recognised. Looking forward to the exhibition.

Julia Cox
1. Posted 24 October 2011 at 7.40am
My grandfather was in the Royal Horse Artillery in WW1 and received the MM for rescuing horses from no-mans land – incredibly proud of him. I have seen War Horse and read the book – looking forward to coming to this exhibition.

Mal
1. Posted 11 November 2011 at 4.27pm
My grandfather, Fred, was a muleteer, he wasn’t fit enough to be a fighting soldier! He told tales of taking supplies, drinking water and whisky for the officers up to the front line. He used to take a ‘nip’ out of each bottle of whisky and then re-cork the bottle. Muleteers took the injured men from the frontlines to the hospital tents and Fred used to pass his hip flask back to the chaps on his wagon. The flask accompanied him throughout the 1914-18 war and then on to firewatching in the 1939-45 war, this time replenished from the bottle kept in the car he chauffeured! I have the flask now and can still see the name ‘Nimrod’ stamped on it.

Dinah Barker
1. Posted 2 January 2012 at 5.41pm
My grandfather served in and survived the 1st WW. He was sent to cut the wire. My aunt told me that although he obviously hated seeing his friends and comrades fall, he got most upset at seeing the plight of the poor horses. I went to see the play and started crying at the beginning just thinking of my grandfather and all the brave men and their scared and beautiful horses.

[Pat Holscher]

A poster on the WWI list notes the following here:

A scheme was established so officers and men who’d sold their horses to the army could buy them back.

That's is curious. It wouldn't surprise me that officer had brought mounts into service, but "men". I wouldn't think that any ems had brought mounts into service.

What do we suppose that entry means?

[Mike Miller]

The yomanry units were most likely to have enlisted men who brought their own horse onto active duty. They served in a similar way to the American National Guard before the war and would use their own horse, if they possessed one, for training and would therefore likely bring them to active duty where the army would purchase them and then provide the feed and vet needs.

[wkambic]

The yomanry units were most likely to have enlisted men who brought their own horse onto active duty. They served in a similar way to the American National Guard before the war and would use their own horse, if they possessed one, for training and would therefore likely bring them to active duty where the army would purchase them and then provide the feed and vet needs.

This practice was also followed by the CSA during the ACW. If the horse were lost the trooper was either issued another or paid for the animal. If the later I suspect he either obtained another mount or joined the infantry or artillery. At Appomatox Grant permitted mounted officers and men to keep their mounts upon demobilization.

[Mike Miller]

This practice was also followed by the CSA during the ACW. If the horse were lost the trooper was either issued another or paid for the animal. If the later I suspect he either obtained another mount or joined the infantry or artillery. At Appomatox Grant permitted mounted officers and men to keep their mounts upon demobilization.

I have read that the horseless cavalrymen were supposed to obtain another horse either at home, from excess stock (unlikely) or captured Union stock. Many Confederate units had dismounted cavalrymen who remained in the cavalry unit due to the loss and shortage of horses.

[Pat Holscher]

From the WWI list:

I think that the sowars of Indian Army cavalry regiments that were still on the silladar system owned their own horses.

FWIW, a description of silladar cavalry from another forum:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forum ... pic=134429

Jim Broshot

[Philip S]

The speaker mentions the fate of the horses at the end of this short film on WWI horses:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWDCO9my ... re=related

[Sam Cox]

also worth reading is

Horsemen in no mans land

[selewis]

also worth reading is

Horsemen in no mans land

to which, add:

"Alice and Combined Training- A Tale of Two Horses", Maj General Geoffrey Brooke (16th Lancers)

[Pat Holscher]

Many years ago my father-in-law told me that he travelled to England then to France to join the Garibaldi volunteers ".... complete with horse and rifle". According to his written notes some forty volunteers travelled from Mexico together with Giuseppi Garibaldi in August 1914.

When they arrived in Paris they were met by one of Garibaldi's brothers who undertook getting the recent volunteers joined with the nearly two thousand that had already gathered to fight under the Garibaldi banner. The accompanying horses were met "......... by an officer of the Blue Cross who arranged stabling" is a quote from one of his personal notes.

I've found a few references to The Blue Cross but frankly I'm surprised how little historical information exists concerning this organization. I would appreciate contact from any List members with some references to the Blue Cross.

Carl

[Pat Holscher]

I looked at those article. Nothing on Blue Cross. Maybe the clothes they wore??

GARiBALDi: THE FIRST CELEBRITYRiall, Lucy. History Today57. 8 (Aug 2007): 41-47

Garibaldi's Panoramic Exploits
Harrington, Peter. MHQ : The Quarterly Journal of Military History20. 4 (Summer 2008): 82-87.

EDGE of the WEDGE
Showalter, Dennis. MHQ : The Quarterly Journal of Military History18. 2 (Winter 2006): 50-59.

Mike
Sanders exploited his new position to support European radicals. At that time, London was a center for exiled revolutionary leaders, and in February 1854 Sanders hosted an official dinner for several of them. He summoned Lajos Kossuth of Hun-'I gary, Giuseppe Mazzini and Giuseppe Garibaldiof Italy, Alexandre-Auguste Ledru Rollin of France, and Alexandr Herzen of Russia to dine with U.S. minister James Buchanan and a number of leading British political figures. It was a guest list that suggested the United States was prepared to support revolutionaries against the monarchs of Europe, and it raised diplomatic hackles.

[Pat Holscher]

The British Blue Cross is A Society for the Encouragement of Kindness to Animals, Critter Docs and nurses for injured and care of animals. It's based in London. They were your MASH units in WWI & WWII fer critters and treated over 300,000 dogs, horses, and mules in both wars. You can find posters online from WWI asking for donations for the cause. They celebrated their 100th Anniversary in 2006.

http://the2funadguyz.com/brblcrww1inh.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11734305

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4763709.stm

Tony Morano

[Pat Holscher]

The British Blue Cross is A Society for the Encouragement of Kindness to Animals, Critter Docs and nurses for injured and care of animals. It's based in London. They were your MASH units in WWI & WWII fer critters and treated over 300,000 dogs, horses, and mules in both wars. You can find posters online from WWI asking for donations for the cause. They celebrated their 100th Anniversary in 2006.

http://the2funadguyz.com/brblcrww1inh.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11734305

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_pictures/4763709.stm

Tony Morano

There few references to the French Croix Bleue organization, herewith a
sample:

http://www.briardacres.com/histoire2.html

I haven't located a reference to support of cavalry mounts but it seems a logical scope for the organization. There is an existing organization Belgium that relates to animal support, Croix Bleue de Belgique.

Unfortunately there now seems some disconnect with this name in France as there is and was (prior to WW I) an organization similar to the Alcoholics Anonymous which uses the same name:

http://www.croixbleue.fr.st/

In Canada the Blue Cross or La Croix Bleue is a medical insurance organization.

Carl

[Pat Holscher]

I haven't seen this mentioned:

Carmen Smith, The Blue Cross at War: 1914-18 and 1939-45 (Burford, 1990)

It seems to to have been published by Blue Cross itself. It's only
72 pages long and is probably quite hard to find. ISBN is 9780951580806.

[Pat Holscher]

Brett:

Thanks very much. I found the entire book, seventy-four pages, at;

http://issuu.com/the_blue_cross/docs/th ... oss_at_war

Carl

[Pat Holscher]

This thread goes back a bit regarding number of horses associated with the war. Here's information from the British Blue Cross Book which Brett Holman identified earlier today;

"It was estimated after World War I that 225,856 horses drafted into the British Army lost their lives,
and that by 1917 there were 869,931 horses on active service.",

"In 1914, Our Dumb Friends' League re-opened its Blue Cross
Fund, first set up in 1912 during the Balkan War. The League's
offer of help to the British Army was turned down, but was gratefully
accepted by the French. By setting up hospitals for horses and dogs,
and by supplying many comforts for the animals, made an incalculable
contribution towards the efforts of the French Army and (more
indirectly) to those of the British Forces in Europe, in holding the
enemy at bay."

Ref: Carmen Smith, The Blue Cross at War: 1914-18 and 1939-45, 1990

Carl

[Pat Holscher]

Glad I could help, and good find! It seems it's the Blue Cross itself which uploaded it. There are also a few other WWI-era documents there:

An address dealing with the work of the Blue Cross in France, delivered by Sir Ernest Flower (Chairman of the Blue Cross Fund) on Wednesday 11th of June 1919 at the offices of the League, 58 Victoria Street, Westminster http://issuu.com/the_blue_cross/docs/address

A Book of Poems for the Blue Cross Fund (to Help Horses in War Time)
(1917)
http://issuu.com/the_blue_cross/docs/a_book_of_poems

The Drivers', Gunners' and Mounted Soldiers' Handbook to Management and Care of Horses and Harness (1915) http://issuu.com/the_blue_cross/docs/dr ... s_handbook

It's nice to see an NGO taking an interest in its own history like this.

[Pat Holscher]

"The total casualties of horses and mules during the war in all theatres and at home came to 529,564, of which 415,979 were horses. This number included, besides animals that died, were killed, destroyed and missing, those that were cast aside and sold."

And an explanation of the casualty number:

"The total of horses that died, were destroyed, killed and missing in the BEF is hard to compute. However, there are statistics which show that on 1 October 1917, in FRANCE and the UNITED KINGDOM, 225,856 fell into those categories."

With a footnote:

"The French Army had lost 376,201 by that date. Out of these 165,513 had been cast, while the British figure was only 30,348 cast. The proportion of castings to death in the British army throughout the war was 1 cast to 7 dead. In the French army it was 1 cast to 1.7 dead. (Statistics, 397).
"Added up, the total horse loss in both armies by 1 October, 1917, comes to 797,918 (Statistics, 397). The losses over the last fifteen months are not specified. At a very conservative estimate it cannot have been less than 250,000, which makes a conjectural figure of about a million and a half from both armies for the whole of the war."

A HISTORY OF THE BRITISH CAVALRY 1816-1919, Volume 8: THE WESTERN FRONT,
1915-1918 EPILOGUE 1919-1939, by The Marquess of Anglesey (1997), at pages 293 - 294.

Jim Broshot