War Horse

[selewis]

The author interviewed:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/jan ... -spielberg

Thanks, Dusan. Interesting article and I'm looking forward to seeing the movie. Though I wonder about the vocal chord statement in the article. That would be millions of surgeries, and I've never heard of this, so am a bit skeptical of the claim, if she was implying that this was a general practice. Has anyone run across this before?

Sandy

[Pat Holscher]

The author interviewed:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2012/jan ... -spielberg

Thanks, Dusan. Interesting article and I'm looking forward to seeing the movie. Though I wonder about the vocal chord statement in the article. That would be millions of surgeries, and I've never heard of this, so am a bit skeptical of the claim, if she was implying that this was a general practice. Has anyone run across this before?

Sandy

I've seen that claimed before, but I think it's a myth.

[Pat Holscher]

I'd also question whether audio horse stealth was a real concern during World War One. While there was some cavalry action, penetration of a rear areas by cavalry on the Western Front was extremely rare, and the occasions calling for real horse stealth would have been very rare.

[Sam Cox]

The Chindits at one stage did silence mules,it was an operation performed on only the loudest animals

Mars force and the earlier Merrills didnt bother,in the words of Charles Hunter "our animals are too tired to brey"

back on to Warhorse,Indian cavalry arrived very late 1914 and not in the summer

[Tom Muller]

The Chindits at one stage did silence mules,it was an operation performed on only the loudest animals

Mars force and the earlier Merrills didnt bother,in the words of Charles Hunter "our animals are too tired to brey"

back on to Warhorse,Indian cavalry arrived very late 1914 and not in the summer

Interesting topic on how to keep horses silent during ops where it was required to keep a very low profile. Have you guys got any more info on how this was handled in the different Cavalry services?

Tom

[Dpuckey]

Saw it last night, a pretty good film, a few things stuck out though.

Accents were clearly Hollywood Devonshire not real Devon, I used to live there. However with a really thick Devon accent full of dialect most people would probably not have understood a word they said!

UP Headcollar Buckles on the Headkit fasten on the right (large buckle), the headpiece holding the bit fastens on the left (small buckle) that way they don't rub together, in hte film many UP Headcollar buckles are shown fastening on the left.

Also no UP or Yeomanry Saddle is shown with wallets fitted, picket pins are not shown strapped over the sword nor a groundsheets, feedbags or mess tins. All of these show in period action shots.

Swords, 1908 and 1912 shown in use, going by the colour of the guard prob hte Cold Steel repro ones. Sword knots in brown leather should have been used by both officers and soldiers, especially in action! The officers 1912 in the charge has a gold parade knot on, ited up on the basket, cavalry and mounted units carry theirs untied ready for use even to this day.

Draw Swords, on the film done just like a bunch of...actors! Drill by the 1912 manual is to pass the hand through the sword knot, 2 turns to the rear to lock it, lift sword hilt onto left arm, grasp grip, raise sword into present guard in front of face, drop into carry swords. Such drill would have been instinctive from continual training.

The charge was strangely lacking in any trumpet calls.

No evidence of any flanking fire deployed by the cavalry, again standard tactic according to 1912.

Once closed on the enemy tents the troopers would have used the point of the sword at full gallop to run the enemy through. There are accounts of this working like a knife through butter! However in the film riders are seen slashing like... a bunch of actors! This may come down to health and safety on the film set, a boot to boot line of full gallop horses with 08 swords at sword in line slamming into the extras playing Germans driving the point home would have ..err killed quite a few!

Troopers armed with the 08 would have spent a great deal of time engaging sword dummies at mounted and dismounted height on both sides, slashing was discouraged and the 08 delivers a pretty useless cut. The Germans rushing in around the horses after the charge breaks up would have been skewered in very quick succession!

The riders in the film are not used to carrying swords, at charge, with sword in line, they should be well forwards over the next arm extended, up on their knees out of the saddle, this would have allowed them to keep the blade still and direct the point well home. In the film they sit up and blades wobble up and down, of course the wobble may be that they are using rubber prop swords to avoid hurting anyone. The 1912 manual and wartime pictures back up this position in the charge.

Several days of mounted drill and sword training would not have gone amiss for the extras.

Of course as a Yeomanry unit early in the war they would have probably been equipped with older patterns of saddlery and sword, but that would open an entirely different can of worms! For example all soldiers could have been on the saddle you see the officers on.

Did also spot a modern barn and I think a bungalow in the distance in the Devon shots, pretty hard to avoid if looking out over the in country from the moor.

All in all a good film well worth seeing.

[John M Φ]

David, If you only saw the film once you were certainly observant. At least some of the sword blades in the charge did look made of flexible material. The commanding officer did appear to use the point of his sword once!.
The film makers must have been making some savings on omitting wallets and other items?. But at least rifle buckets were in evidence and some had mess tins attached.
I was surprised the Germans were able to outrun the cavalry.
I enjoyed the film as well.
John.M.

[Dpuckey]

John,

Only seen it once so far. I know the guy who made the lance buckets. Can't have made the headkits though as he'd have got that right for sure!

The errors do make you wonder who they used as the 'expert' to advise on skills and kit? or was it the 'luvvies' just going it'll do it will look nice?

A tad more attention to detail and even we could not pick holes in it.

[John M Φ]

David,

They probably spent too much on the tank!.
The Military History Workshop say they have been suppliers to the film, though may not have been much. Their reproduction equipment always looks accurate,

John.

[Dpuckey]

John,

typo, meant to write rifle buckets not lance buckets, see the ones he made close up and are spot on, used mine as the model for them.

Looked at some stills,

blankets are folded rather large and flappy and all horses seem to have the reins on the bottom two slots of the PMR bit, not top ring and first slot as normal. Top ring gives no curb action, ones on slots do. Bottom slot is normally for those horses that really pull and need the leverage to stop...or try to.

[Pat Holscher]

This has been interesting. Generally, I think we're all glad to see the film, but as a little distance enters the picture we can think of some things that we'd pick out. Most are fairly minor, however.

So far we have what appears to be some improper harness tack and some odds and ends, tack wise.

The cavalry charge is noted. One thing I'd note there is that I'd think it odd for German infantry to set up in a field and have their covering mg support be in nearby woods, but that can probably be explained away in some fashion.

One thing that I keep pondering is the use of the horse early on as a draft animal. Not that it'd be impossible, but that horse would certainly be generally unsuitable for that. Of course, that's part of the plot.

[Pat Holscher]

Accents were clearly Hollywood Devonshire not real Devon, I used to live there. However with a really thick Devon accent full of dialect most people would probably not have understood a word they said!

I've never been to the UK, but things like this always amaze me. So even now a Devon accent is really distinct?

[John M Φ]

The cavalry charge is noted. One thing I'd note there is that I'd think it odd for German infantry to set up in a field and have their covering mg support be in nearby woods, but that can probably be explained away in some fashion.

One thing that I keep pondering is the use of the horse early on as a draft animal. Not that it'd be impossible, but that horse would certainly be generally unsuitable for that. Of course, that's part of the plot.

Yes, Pat. I pondered over that one. The explanation might be that the Germans had set up a trap...and not told the campers of this intention?.

I think the ploughing was a bit far fetched.

John.

[selewis]

Accents were clearly Hollywood Devonshire not real Devon, I used to live there. However with a really thick Devon accent full of dialect most people would probably not have understood a word they said!

I've never been to the UK, but things like this always amaze me. So even now a Devon accent is really distinct?

I've never been off the North American continent - except swimming- but this doesn't surprise me. Even here in the states, where television and radio have been eroding regional accents and colloquial expressions, they endure surprisingly well.

When I lived in New England you could often make a pretty good guess what town someone was from, if they grew up there. Some of them were subtle differences that you had to be attuned to but others were quite pronounced. Take, for instance, "Marblehead", with strong stress on the third syllable: definitely from Salem/Danvers or P´bd. Don't like the homogenization of language? "So don't I." (Malden/Medfd)

I don't know if that is still so, I lived there 30 years ago and things change as towns that were distinct entities, but only a few miles apart or abutting, become subsumed into the greater metropolitan area and take on the character of the suburb, which actually they are not, or were not. When I lived in Salem I knew young people who had never been to Boston, an hour away. Or if they had it was for some particular reason. Otherwise, what for? An extreme example of this: I had a talk one time with a man out west (Spenser, Mass). He was 85 and his one big journey, by horse, which he remembered in detail, had been to East Brimfield, less than 20 miles away. To him, Boston was a foreign mystery. I'm not poking fun here, far from it: he was a very interesting fellow and we talked long into the night.

Sandy

[Dpuckey]

Glad you spotted the MG08 anomaly as well, why would a German admin area have 6 or so MG08 set up on tripods ready to fire..facing their own undefended camp? I'd have to cehck but early on in the war the MMG was a Regimental asset for British and German Infantry regiments, our Cavalry also had MMG (Medium Machine Guns - Vickers) on establishment. Doctrine was to deply them as covering fire to a mounted action, especially a planned one, the Indian Scouts would have also located suitable MG positions which would have opened up from a flank just before the Charge broke cover. Seemed to be deployed very much like today as a Support Company/Troop, of course then the line only had rifle, now they have LMG and auto rifles and much more. It was later on that the MMG became famous for it's stopping power and we formed the Machine Gun Corps once trench warfare arrived. In fact at Mons the BEF rifle fire was so intense and accurate the Germans thought that they faced machine guns.

[Pat Holscher]

Glad you spotted the MG08 anomaly as well, why would a German admin area have 6 or so MG08 set up on tripods ready to fire..facing their own undefended camp? I'd have to cehck but early on in the war the MMG was a Regimental asset for British and German Infantry regiments, our Cavalry also had MMG (Medium Machine Guns - Vickers) on establishment. Doctrine was to deply them as covering fire to a mounted action, especially a planned one, the Indian Scouts would have also located suitable MG positions which would have opened up from a flank just before the Charge broke cover. Seemed to be deployed very much like today as a Support Company/Troop, of course then the line only had rifle, now they have LMG and auto rifles and much more. It was later on that the MMG became famous for it's stopping power and we formed the Machine Gun Corps once trench warfare arrived. In fact at Mons the BEF rifle fire was so intense and accurate the Germans thought that they faced machine guns.

The only way I could explain that is if the mgs had been on the other side of the woods and had been quickly displaced and repositioned upon the attack occurring, but that wouldn't be very realistic, as heavy as those guns were.

Dining in front of the muzzle end of mgs, or tenting in front of them, would be scary, even if they were your own mgs. I haven't read the book, but that is a weakness in the scene. Perhaps the book explains it somehow. If that was just the movie making, as good as the charge scene is, they should have reconsidered it and came up with a bit of a different scenario.

[george seal]

I saw the movie 2 days ago and liked it very much. It has managed to obtain some bad reviews here that say Spielberg can't do a clasic epic, but I guess that just shows Chilean film critics are even worse spoilsports than US/UK ones. I was also favourably impressed with the movie's general realism and atention to detail. The evolution of headwear was particulary evident. I also liked the armament. Specially that the artillery used it's special version of the P08 Luger (complete with snail or drum magazine). I also liked how they showed the importance of draft animals for logistics. They drive that home for the layman public when one of the German brothers says that all the machines will malfunction and they'll have to use the horses.
I also liked the humane portrayal of both sides.
All in all the mistakes are very specific details. I also noticed that during the charge the swords are used with cuts (but in the practice they charge with the points forward). I agree this probably was due to safety concerns. That's tipical. In CPR training I'm always told "don't do it like in a movie" (flexing your elbows). Of course if they did CPR correctly in movies actors would get their ribcage broken. But it would be realistic.
I'm surprised the accents were off. There were plenty of British actors.
All in all, a pretty good movie. Also a decent old fashioned one. By that I mean, it was not a movie about cynical people saying that war proves humans are scum. That's another good thing.

[Pat Holscher]

All in all, a pretty good movie. Also a decent old fashioned one. By that I mean, it was not a movie about cynical people saying that war proves humans are scum. That's another good thing.

That's an interesting point, and it hadn't really occurred to me.

Indeed, it's actually relatively rare in the past couple of decades not to have at least one "good guy" character who maintains that position, or something dark, and sinister about human nature that's supposed to be revealing. This film doesn't have a character like that, although the elderly French farmer makes a point about the horror of war in his character. But that's presented in a different fashion.

[Suentimb]

£2,723.10 according to this site :
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bill ... -1900.html
I don't know how that compares with $ rates?

A fair price for a good horse I suspect....

[Centman]

On the uniform details of the film, I have a question for our knowledgeable British participants. In the practice charge taking place in the UK in 1914, the cavalrymen turn out in a blue uniform. They were earlier shown wearing their "khaki" uniform, so we presume they're turned out in a dress or semi dress uniform. Anyhow, what was the blue uniform?

There's a reference in the 1914 cavalry action dialog to a separate action by the "Royals". I've sometimes heard of the "Blues and the Royals". Is the unit depicted the "Blues" and what does that mean?

Blue is the official uniform colour of the British Army. No 1 dress is still blue. As for the charge, I would suspect it was based upon a Yeomanry unit.Being a Devon lad, why wasnt he wearing Devon insignia in the trenches scenes, instead of Dorset Regtl insignia. My mothers brothers and brother in laws all served in The Devons during WW1, my uncle Char was with the 4th Devons in Mesopotamia, modern day Iraq, some things don't change.

All in all a fair portrayal of the horrors of war, but some sequences didnt sit well with me. A two year old thoroughbred ploughing?

How do you/can you given the passage of time, accuratley portray such inhumanity.

If you want a good read try Private Peaceful, also by Morpurgo