Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

The Rhodesian Army were using claymores for a long time, the Govt were very adept at aquireing equipment from various sources. It had a sanction busting team who's job it was to get the equipment required, and of course the other source was South Africa.

Roy

Roy, thanks.

There's been some radio/podcast broadcasts on the country recently given that the this year more or less marks the 30th year of Zimbabwe. In one of those, I heard it claimed that it was South Africa that ultimately brought the Smith government down, more or less. I know the relationship with South Africa was mixed, but if you care to (and you certainly can choose to ignore this or any other query), could you indicate if there's any truth to that?

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

Perhaps a little background to the Rhodesian Army Association, it first started as an association for retired and serving officers of the RAR [Rhodesian African Rifles] and with affiliation to the old KAR [Kings African Rifles of Kenya] it was founded during the old Federation days in the fifty's and early sixty's.

When the Rhodesian Army fell under the control of the Federal Army there was no standing army only the KAR and the 1st Bat the Rhodesia Regt a Territorial Reg or reserve as you would know it as. After Independance it was thrown open to other Regts to join. But it made very little ref to Grey's, and one would think at times that Grey's did not exist, and concentrated on the other 3 Regts [ RAR, RLI and Selous Scouts], hence my small contribution to the forum to at lest have Grey's remembered somewhere.

Roy

And we're proud to have the Grey's remembered here.

Indeed, while I'm getting ahead of myself, from time to time the Admin folks here have thought about adding a section on certain units, sort of like we've done with historical studies and sites on the website, and seeing if you'd consent to the Grey's being the first one (which would also put the laboring ore on you, I'm afraid, as you have the knowledge and the text to work from). Work pressures have prevented us from planning that out too far, but again, we're very proud to have the Grey's reflected on our site.

[Pat Holscher]

I did drop a note to their webmaster over there, using a very friendly tone. Looking through their photos, there certainly seems to be a lot of them that came from here, or at least I have questions about that. If I get a reply, I'll post it here.

If people are going to lift photos, they owe it to us to ask first, so that we may either give our permission, or ask those who own them if they care to give theirs. More recently we've taken up watermarking photos to try to prevent them from being lifted, and the majority (maybe all) of the donated photos on this thread are now watermarked.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

Thank you for your comments, and I always welcome the chance to further MH site by what ever assistance I can be.

Getting back to your main question the South African Govt were largely responsible for the the demise of Rhodesia. Because many of strategic imports came to us via SA ie fuel, spares and of course ammo and equipment for the forces, they were in a position to control us. They used it very effectivley to bring us to the negotiating table, by cutting of our fuel and ammo, at one stage we were down to our last reserve ammo and could only hold on for a week, but we did have friends who put pressure on the SA Govt to release these badly needed.

But in the end it was pressure from the British Govt and others, that if the Rhodesians came to the table and hand over power, that they would ensure that SA became acceptable to them and the rest of the world. Although we had many friends in SA it was not enough, I actualy gave an address to the Rotary Club of the Orange Free State, in which I said that we needed their help but If we go your next, it did not go down to well but true.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

There's been some recent discussion on wearing load bearing equipment while riding, so I'm bumping up material from this excellent thread on that topic.

The following material isn't all of it, it's just what I immediately found from the first several pages. More to follow.

Courtesy of Eric and the Gazette des Armes



And this is a 1904 McCellan. Note the G3 rifle.

Pat

The last picture of the charging horseman is very good. You can see he is actually aiming the G3. We can also get a good look at the boots with no spurs. Also of note is the Rhodesian cammo uniform and the jacket webbing. This webbing apears to be one of the grandadies of modern tactical vests. I was interested in seeing this kit in mounted action. Here's a link for the webbing in Selous Scout's use.
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/EQUIPMENT.htm

The same link also shows the comunist webbing popular among Rhodesian troops. It's been copied by Palestinians and Israelies (for tank crews). These types of webbing look practical and comfortable. I hated I stuff I had to wear. Never could adjust all the stupid straps.

Originally posted by george seal
The last picture of the charging horseman is very good. You can see he is actually aiming the G3. We can also get a good look at the boots with no spurs. Also of note is the Rhodesian cammo uniform and the jacket webbing. This webbing apears to be one of the grandadies of modern tactical vests. I was interested in seeing this kit in mounted action. Here's a link for the webbing in Selous Scout's use.
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/EQUIPMENT.htm

The same link also shows the comunist webbing popular among Rhodesian troops. It's been copied by Palestinians and Israelies (for tank crews). These types of webbing look practical and comfortable. I hated I stuff I had to wear. Never could adjust all the stupid straps.

The use of vests by mounted troops, which Roy mentions earlier in the thread, is intersting. For one thing, it puts most of the troops gear on the soldier, which would likely have made his switch to a ground soldier, when necessarily, much more rapid. Quite a contrast, really, to photos we see of American cavalry men of the second half of the 19th Century, or even to British and American cavalrymen of the 20th Century.

On vests in general, the US actually introduced a vest prior to D-Day. I've seen photos of it, but I've never seen a photo of one in use (outside the use by actors in Saving Private Ryan). Some people who are knowledgable on these topics claim that the vests were never actually used, as troops dislike them. Others claim that some were used in Overlord. Apparently the problem was that they were made out of the heavy canvas in use at the time, and therefore were very uncomfortable for the soldier, keeping in mind that American soldiers in Europe in WWII were already normally wearing a wool shirt and some sort of jacket.

Pat

Originally posted by george seal
I have a magazine article of a vest used in Overlord by sappers, maybe "seabees". It also included the waterproof case for the gas mask. Maybe that's what you are reffering to Pat. It looked heavy, but it was used to carry a whole load of stuff (explosives, plumber's torch) so the alternative would just have been a giant back pack. Maybe the grunts just did not whant to carry so much stuff?

I'm not familiar with that item. These were a canvas vest in one of the various OD colors with pockets in the front. They really don't vary much from a lot of the vests around now. The front pockets were for carrying ammunition, etc.

While I know it's poor form to cite it, the only photos I've ever seen of one in use is in the movie Saving Private Ryan. The movie is actually pretty accurate in terms of detail, which doesn't mean, of course, that they got that detail correct. Other than that, they are depicted in a book called "The WWII GI In Color Photographs", but that book does not have actual WWII photographs. I wonder if one of Shelby Stanton's books address the item.

I believe they were supposed to be issued to regular infantrymen, but generally most of them did not carry one, so I don't know how widely they were actually issued.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

We are really fortunate here to have a second Grey's veteran, Gary Snelling, contribute some photographs of his service in the unit. Here's the first:



I'm also hopeful that Gary will register here and contribute to this and other threads. We've had the registration temporarily down for some adjustments, which I hope won't inconvenience him, as I certainly hope to learn more details of this late mounted unit and the experiences of its men.

On this photograph, note that the weapon depicted is the heavy barreled version of the FAL, which was a lmg. The FAL rifle is a heavy weapon, I can't imagine how awkward it would have been to carry this light machinegun, which was heavier yet. The magazine, as you can tell from this photo, was a 30 round version, rather than the 20 round rifle norm, and the barrel was quite a bit stouter.

Pat

Bumped up as it illustrates a fairly substantial pack on a mounted trooper.

[Pat Holscher]

Gary Snelling has graciously provided these very intereting photographs, showing himself, as a Grey's Scout, before and after the application of face camouflage:





Anyone who has done some service remembers face paint! What an excellent example.

Note again the heavy barreled FAL.

Note also the iron stirrup on the Rhodesian McClellan clearly visible here.

What is the breed of this particular horse?

Pat

Another example.

[Pat Holscher]

When did the war in Rhodesia actually first commence? I associate it with the 1980s, but I'm under the impression that the first actions, treated as police matters, commenced sometime earlier in the 1970s.

The reason that I ask is that I realize, from earlier postings in this thread, that Rhodesia had contributed manpower to the SAS in Malaya. I hadn't actually realized that the Commonwealth commitment in Malaya had run up to 1960, a bit later than I thought, and it apparently started around 1955. I saw that in connection with an item on Australian troops, who entered Vietnam around 1966, which means they had only six year break in commitment to some armed action. Rhodesia's was a bit longer, but my goodness the post war era was dangerous. The Korean War, the Malayan Emergency, Vietnam, Rhodesia, etc. Tense times.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
The first real incursion into Rhodesia, was in 1961 when the break up of the Federation came into being. I was in the Police at the time, and part of my patrol area was to look for signs of either cross border or intimidation of local Africans. The future ters were already putting down their core supporters and sleepers for the future.
The first was in the the area of Sinoia, about 150 miles from Salisbury, although it was a Police action, for the first time the newly formed RLI [Rhodesian Light Infantry] became activley involved.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat
The first real incursion into Rhodesia, was in 1961 when the break up of the Federation came into being. I was in the Police at the time, and part of my patrol area was to look for signs of either cross border or intimidation of local Africans. The future ters were already putting down their core supporters and sleepers for the future.
The first was in the the area of Sinoia, about 150 miles from Salisbury, although it was a Police action, for the first time the newly formed RLI [Rhodesian Light Infantry] became activley involved.

Roy

Wow. 61 was very early.

So basically Rhodesia became involved with the British effort in Malaya in 1955 or so, fought there until 1960 when that more or less concluded, and then it's own insurgency started the following year.

There was no real break for servicemen after 1939. One thing after another.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Thats right although they formed part of what was known as the Federal Army, British controlled the Regt 's concerned in Malaya were the RAR, and C Sqn SAS, and some national servicemen. A number of junior officer's and NCO's, were later to command the Regt's of the Rhodesian Army. Most notably Gen Peter Walls, Derry McKintyre and others who were to form the RLI, armoured car Regt and other Regt's which were to make up the new Rhodesian Army.
They came with a full background in counter insurgency, so they were able draw up the tacticts in counter insergancy, and draw away from the conventional warfare training.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, I just posted this quote from Von Boeselager describing German cavalry on the Eastern Front during WWII:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10840

I'd be curious to what extent this reflected mounted infantry action later. Von Boeselager's description of mounted action is remarkably similiar to that of mounted action on the Frontier in the late 19th Century.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

That was a perfect copy of how Grey's opperated in the field. If I did not know better, it would have come straight out of our training manual.We alll think that we have invented the wheel, but on your thread It, would appear we reinvented it, I have never seen that article before, but it is very fascinating.

And would appear that we were on target with our thoughts and method of training, thank you for putting the thread up.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

That was a perfect copy of how Grey's opperated in the field. If I did not know better, it would have come straight out of our training manual.We alll think that we have invented the wheel, but on your thread It, would appear we reinvented it, I have never seen that article before, but it is very fascinating.

And would appear that we were on target with our thoughts and method of training, thank you for putting the thread up.

Roy

I think you'd find a lot of his descriptions on operational details extremely familiar. Quite a few would be recognizable to students of the American Frontier as well (and perhaps of the Boer War), with the difference being the use of more modern weaponry. It's an interesting read.

[Pat Holscher]

A site with a bunch of photos I haven't seen before (and I still haven't looked at them all):

http://www.wix.com/crikey/greys-scouts-2#!

Some interesting photographs, although the website is a bit unwieldy.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Thanks for putting this one up. The site is as you say cumberson, but never the less it is good to see, and not before time. Many on the thread I have taught to ride and it also fills in a period that I was doing other things so lost some contact with Grey's.

However I still regard the SMH as my home page, and will continue to do so.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

However I still regard the SMH as my home page, and will continue to do so.

Roy

We're very glad to hear that!

Roy, there are some women depicted in the photographs on that site. What role did female soldiers have in connection with the unit?

[roy elderkin]

Pat
The womans service in Grey's, were mostly involved with either admin duties or mostly in the Vet dept. They were highly trained vetinary nurses, and had expertise in animal and stable management. They would assist Vets in surgery, with either horses or dogs, and welfare and care afterwards. Their main duties would have been, treatment of minor injurys, or performing light surgery work. They were also responsible for the upkeep of all animal records, equipment and security of drugs. They were an extreemly important part of the Regt, for we would not have been able to turn round unfit horses, and return them to active duty.

Under Military law they were not permitted to be in forward positions, or combat areas, we had male soldiers to carry out those tasks.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat
The womans service in Grey's, were mostly involved with either admin duties or mostly in the Vet dept. They were highly trained vetinary nurses, and had expertise in animal and stable management. They would assist Vets in surgery, with either horses or dogs, and welfare and care afterwards. Their main duties would have been, treatment of minor injurys, or performing light surgery work. They were also responsible for the upkeep of all animal records, equipment and security of drugs. They were an extreemly important part of the Regt, for we would not have been able to turn round unfit horses, and return them to active duty.

Under Military law they were not permitted to be in forward positions, or combat areas, we had male soldiers to carry out those tasks.

Roy

Thanks Roy. I figured they had no combat role, but as I hadn't seen photos of female Rhodesian soldiers before, I didn't know what they did. That role makes sense. I was wondering if they also had an equestrian training role, but the veterinary role is one that should have occurred to me and did not.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
No they took no part in the actual equestrian side of training but they were accomplished horsewoman in their own right. One having gone through the Patomac USA Horsemasters course, which I was an examiner and teacher. Although when she applied to join the Regt, I took no part in her selection. I did not think that this would be proper, and she would have to be selected on merit from other members of the selection board.
I think if memory serves me right, that a couple had competed in the arena.

Roy