Rhodesian McClellans and the Greys Scouts

[Pat Holscher]

There's been some recent discussion on wearing load bearing equipment while riding, so I'm bumping up material from this excellent thread on that topic.

The following material isn't all of it, it's just what I immediately found from the first several pages. More to follow.

Courtesy of Eric and the Gazette des Armes



And this is a 1904 McCellan. Note the G3 rifle.

Pat

The last picture of the charging horseman is very good. You can see he is actually aiming the G3. We can also get a good look at the boots with no spurs. Also of note is the Rhodesian cammo uniform and the jacket webbing. This webbing apears to be one of the grandadies of modern tactical vests. I was interested in seeing this kit in mounted action. Here's a link for the webbing in Selous Scout's use.
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/EQUIPMENT.htm

The same link also shows the comunist webbing popular among Rhodesian troops. It's been copied by Palestinians and Israelies (for tank crews). These types of webbing look practical and comfortable. I hated I stuff I had to wear. Never could adjust all the stupid straps.

Originally posted by george seal
The last picture of the charging horseman is very good. You can see he is actually aiming the G3. We can also get a good look at the boots with no spurs. Also of note is the Rhodesian cammo uniform and the jacket webbing. This webbing apears to be one of the grandadies of modern tactical vests. I was interested in seeing this kit in mounted action. Here's a link for the webbing in Selous Scout's use.
http://members.tripod.com/selousscouts/EQUIPMENT.htm

The same link also shows the comunist webbing popular among Rhodesian troops. It's been copied by Palestinians and Israelies (for tank crews). These types of webbing look practical and comfortable. I hated I stuff I had to wear. Never could adjust all the stupid straps.

The use of vests by mounted troops, which Roy mentions earlier in the thread, is intersting. For one thing, it puts most of the troops gear on the soldier, which would likely have made his switch to a ground soldier, when necessarily, much more rapid. Quite a contrast, really, to photos we see of American cavalry men of the second half of the 19th Century, or even to British and American cavalrymen of the 20th Century.

On vests in general, the US actually introduced a vest prior to D-Day. I've seen photos of it, but I've never seen a photo of one in use (outside the use by actors in Saving Private Ryan). Some people who are knowledgable on these topics claim that the vests were never actually used, as troops dislike them. Others claim that some were used in Overlord. Apparently the problem was that they were made out of the heavy canvas in use at the time, and therefore were very uncomfortable for the soldier, keeping in mind that American soldiers in Europe in WWII were already normally wearing a wool shirt and some sort of jacket.

Pat

Originally posted by george seal
I have a magazine article of a vest used in Overlord by sappers, maybe "seabees". It also included the waterproof case for the gas mask. Maybe that's what you are reffering to Pat. It looked heavy, but it was used to carry a whole load of stuff (explosives, plumber's torch) so the alternative would just have been a giant back pack. Maybe the grunts just did not whant to carry so much stuff?

I'm not familiar with that item. These were a canvas vest in one of the various OD colors with pockets in the front. They really don't vary much from a lot of the vests around now. The front pockets were for carrying ammunition, etc.

While I know it's poor form to cite it, the only photos I've ever seen of one in use is in the movie Saving Private Ryan. The movie is actually pretty accurate in terms of detail, which doesn't mean, of course, that they got that detail correct. Other than that, they are depicted in a book called "The WWII GI In Color Photographs", but that book does not have actual WWII photographs. I wonder if one of Shelby Stanton's books address the item.

I believe they were supposed to be issued to regular infantrymen, but generally most of them did not carry one, so I don't know how widely they were actually issued.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

We are really fortunate here to have a second Grey's veteran, Gary Snelling, contribute some photographs of his service in the unit. Here's the first:



I'm also hopeful that Gary will register here and contribute to this and other threads. We've had the registration temporarily down for some adjustments, which I hope won't inconvenience him, as I certainly hope to learn more details of this late mounted unit and the experiences of its men.

On this photograph, note that the weapon depicted is the heavy barreled version of the FAL, which was a lmg. The FAL rifle is a heavy weapon, I can't imagine how awkward it would have been to carry this light machinegun, which was heavier yet. The magazine, as you can tell from this photo, was a 30 round version, rather than the 20 round rifle norm, and the barrel was quite a bit stouter.

Pat

Bumped up as it illustrates a fairly substantial pack on a mounted trooper.

[Pat Holscher]

Gary Snelling has graciously provided these very intereting photographs, showing himself, as a Grey's Scout, before and after the application of face camouflage:





Anyone who has done some service remembers face paint! What an excellent example.

Note again the heavy barreled FAL.

Note also the iron stirrup on the Rhodesian McClellan clearly visible here.

What is the breed of this particular horse?

Pat

Another example.

[Pat Holscher]

When did the war in Rhodesia actually first commence? I associate it with the 1980s, but I'm under the impression that the first actions, treated as police matters, commenced sometime earlier in the 1970s.

The reason that I ask is that I realize, from earlier postings in this thread, that Rhodesia had contributed manpower to the SAS in Malaya. I hadn't actually realized that the Commonwealth commitment in Malaya had run up to 1960, a bit later than I thought, and it apparently started around 1955. I saw that in connection with an item on Australian troops, who entered Vietnam around 1966, which means they had only six year break in commitment to some armed action. Rhodesia's was a bit longer, but my goodness the post war era was dangerous. The Korean War, the Malayan Emergency, Vietnam, Rhodesia, etc. Tense times.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
The first real incursion into Rhodesia, was in 1961 when the break up of the Federation came into being. I was in the Police at the time, and part of my patrol area was to look for signs of either cross border or intimidation of local Africans. The future ters were already putting down their core supporters and sleepers for the future.
The first was in the the area of Sinoia, about 150 miles from Salisbury, although it was a Police action, for the first time the newly formed RLI [Rhodesian Light Infantry] became activley involved.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat
The first real incursion into Rhodesia, was in 1961 when the break up of the Federation came into being. I was in the Police at the time, and part of my patrol area was to look for signs of either cross border or intimidation of local Africans. The future ters were already putting down their core supporters and sleepers for the future.
The first was in the the area of Sinoia, about 150 miles from Salisbury, although it was a Police action, for the first time the newly formed RLI [Rhodesian Light Infantry] became activley involved.

Roy

Wow. 61 was very early.

So basically Rhodesia became involved with the British effort in Malaya in 1955 or so, fought there until 1960 when that more or less concluded, and then it's own insurgency started the following year.

There was no real break for servicemen after 1939. One thing after another.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Thats right although they formed part of what was known as the Federal Army, British controlled the Regt 's concerned in Malaya were the RAR, and C Sqn SAS, and some national servicemen. A number of junior officer's and NCO's, were later to command the Regt's of the Rhodesian Army. Most notably Gen Peter Walls, Derry McKintyre and others who were to form the RLI, armoured car Regt and other Regt's which were to make up the new Rhodesian Army.
They came with a full background in counter insurgency, so they were able draw up the tacticts in counter insergancy, and draw away from the conventional warfare training.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Roy, I just posted this quote from Von Boeselager describing German cavalry on the Eastern Front during WWII:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10840

I'd be curious to what extent this reflected mounted infantry action later. Von Boeselager's description of mounted action is remarkably similiar to that of mounted action on the Frontier in the late 19th Century.

[roy elderkin]

Pat

That was a perfect copy of how Grey's opperated in the field. If I did not know better, it would have come straight out of our training manual.We alll think that we have invented the wheel, but on your thread It, would appear we reinvented it, I have never seen that article before, but it is very fascinating.

And would appear that we were on target with our thoughts and method of training, thank you for putting the thread up.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat

That was a perfect copy of how Grey's opperated in the field. If I did not know better, it would have come straight out of our training manual.We alll think that we have invented the wheel, but on your thread It, would appear we reinvented it, I have never seen that article before, but it is very fascinating.

And would appear that we were on target with our thoughts and method of training, thank you for putting the thread up.

Roy

I think you'd find a lot of his descriptions on operational details extremely familiar. Quite a few would be recognizable to students of the American Frontier as well (and perhaps of the Boer War), with the difference being the use of more modern weaponry. It's an interesting read.

[Pat Holscher]

A site with a bunch of photos I haven't seen before (and I still haven't looked at them all):

http://www.wix.com/crikey/greys-scouts-2#!

Some interesting photographs, although the website is a bit unwieldy.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
Thanks for putting this one up. The site is as you say cumberson, but never the less it is good to see, and not before time. Many on the thread I have taught to ride and it also fills in a period that I was doing other things so lost some contact with Grey's.

However I still regard the SMH as my home page, and will continue to do so.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

However I still regard the SMH as my home page, and will continue to do so.

Roy

We're very glad to hear that!

Roy, there are some women depicted in the photographs on that site. What role did female soldiers have in connection with the unit?

[roy elderkin]

Pat
The womans service in Grey's, were mostly involved with either admin duties or mostly in the Vet dept. They were highly trained vetinary nurses, and had expertise in animal and stable management. They would assist Vets in surgery, with either horses or dogs, and welfare and care afterwards. Their main duties would have been, treatment of minor injurys, or performing light surgery work. They were also responsible for the upkeep of all animal records, equipment and security of drugs. They were an extreemly important part of the Regt, for we would not have been able to turn round unfit horses, and return them to active duty.

Under Military law they were not permitted to be in forward positions, or combat areas, we had male soldiers to carry out those tasks.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Pat
The womans service in Grey's, were mostly involved with either admin duties or mostly in the Vet dept. They were highly trained vetinary nurses, and had expertise in animal and stable management. They would assist Vets in surgery, with either horses or dogs, and welfare and care afterwards. Their main duties would have been, treatment of minor injurys, or performing light surgery work. They were also responsible for the upkeep of all animal records, equipment and security of drugs. They were an extreemly important part of the Regt, for we would not have been able to turn round unfit horses, and return them to active duty.

Under Military law they were not permitted to be in forward positions, or combat areas, we had male soldiers to carry out those tasks.

Roy

Thanks Roy. I figured they had no combat role, but as I hadn't seen photos of female Rhodesian soldiers before, I didn't know what they did. That role makes sense. I was wondering if they also had an equestrian training role, but the veterinary role is one that should have occurred to me and did not.

[roy elderkin]

Pat
No they took no part in the actual equestrian side of training but they were accomplished horsewoman in their own right. One having gone through the Patomac USA Horsemasters course, which I was an examiner and teacher. Although when she applied to join the Regt, I took no part in her selection. I did not think that this would be proper, and she would have to be selected on merit from other members of the selection board.
I think if memory serves me right, that a couple had competed in the arena.

Roy

[Pat Holscher]

Photos and text courtesy of Gary Snelling:

Text by Gary Snelling
Doesn't it look so easy to load these creatures? If one didn't want to go in? Fun was had by all!!!

Text by Gary Snelling
Regrouping outside Victoria Falls on the Bulawayo road. Off to a new operational area.

Text by Gary Snelling
Trooper Keith Robb giving a poor salute!!

Good example of soldier humor in that last one.

These are some really interesting examples of horse transportation. I may also post these to the horse transportation thread.


Pat

I'm going to refer to this in a new post, so I thought I'd bump this up.

[Pat Holscher]

D. COST: Horses can conduct operations at the lower-end of the
spectrum of conflict effectively and economically. In terms of end
item costs alone, it is possible, purchasing local horses in most
countries, to mount a platoon for the cost of a 2 1/2 ton truck
(1:24). The savings in comparison to other mobility equipment
(armored personnel carriers and utility helicopters) increases in
geometric proportions. The savings extend further to accessory anu
spare parts as well as fuel (food and forage). The Portuguese and
Rhodc. ian experience from 1961 - 1980 clearly demonstrated that all
horse furniture (saddlery, bridling, etc.) could be fabricated
locally (2:20). Regarding food, even if provender had to be
imported, it remains cheaper in bulk quantities than the petroleum,
6
oil and lubricants that would be required for transportation
equipment.
E. LOGISTICAL SUPPORTABILITY: In comparison to mechanical
equipment, the logistical requirements to operate, maintain and
sustain horses are insignificant. Essentially horses require
saddlery, bridling and, in some cases, horse shoes. The Portuguese
in Angola and the Rhodesians were able to fabricate these items
locally (2:20). Wherever there is an indigenous horse population,
food and forage is also available locally. There are some
operational areas where food and forage would have to be supplied
externally. Generally, the only items that would have to be
provided to a host country would be medicine and equipment required
9 to conduct veterinary support.

From: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11349&p=101304#p101304

[Pat Holscher]

From the same article that Sam located and posted:

F. RHODESIA 1976-1980
Although the two main liberation movements in Rhodesia, the
Zimbabwe African People's Union (ZAPU) and the Zimbabwe African
National Union (ZANU) were formed in the early 1960's, insurgency
warfare did not begin until the Rhodesian Government declared
unilateral independence from Great Britain in 1965 (2:6).
ZAPU was based mainly in Zambia and Botswana while ZANU was based
in Zambia and in Mozambique (2:8-9). Throughout the war, the
Rhodesian security forces exercised control over the interior of
the country. Tactically, the Rhodesians held their own and there
was never any doubt that Rhodesian security forces could prevail
in any engagement against the insurgent forces (17:5).
Strategically, however, Rhodesia was almost completely isolated,
having become a "pariah" state on the world scene (17:5).
Conversely, ZAPU and ZANU enjoyed wide-spread support from the
Third World and the Communist world as well as tacit, although
reluctant, support from Great Britain and the US. Neither side
could militarily destroy the other. Certainly, the insurgents were
no match for the Rhodesians (2:13). However, the Rhodesians could
not destroy the insurgent infra-structure in Botswana, Mozambique
and Zambia without risking total open warfare with those countries.
16
The result was a stalemate that held only the gloomy prospect of
continued warfare. Unable to continue waging war indefinitely
under conditions of virtual diplomatic and economic isolation, the
Rhodesians "threw in the towel" in 1979 resulting in an
internationally supervised election in 1980. ZANU became the
government of Zimbabwe and the war was over (17:15).
Rhodesian military operations consisted mainly of destroying
insurgent bands operating within Rhodesia and cross-border raids
into neighboring countries to capture prisoners and destroy
insurgent logistical and staging bases (2:12). The cross-border
operations had to be carefully executed to minimize the risks of
open conflict with the countries themselves (17:5).
Grey's Scouts, organized in 1976, were assigned the following
missions:
0 Conduct patrols in order to make contact with
insurgent bands (4:213).
0 Provide a screen in conjunction with crossborder
raids (4:213).
0 Assist engineers in the construction of crossborder
barriers in country unaccessible to
vehicles (2:21).
Patrols would be dispatched from a centralized squadron base camp
for periods of 6 to 7 days. Normally a patrol consisted of 8
soldiers in contact with other patrols and their next higher
echelon of command. Tracker dogs organic to the unit were used in
these patrols. When contact was made, a decision was made as to
whether to insert an airmobile fire-force or whether to engage with
the horse-mounted troops. If an airmobile fire-force was inserted,
the horse-mounted troops took up blocking positions to intercept
fleeing insurgents from the airmobile insertion. If only horsemounted
troops were used, the horse-mounted soldiers would
dismount, fight as infantry while other horse-mounted sections
operating in the area would provide support (4:213).
Frequently, the patrols were directed from helicopters. In one
spectacular engagement, a squadron directed by helicopter, located
a band of 75 insurgents and succeeded in eliminating 60 insurgents
(4:213). Generally, a normal day's patrol would cover about 40
kilometers (2:20).
The purpose of the screen was as much to intercept fleeing
insurgents as it was to provide security for the raid.
Grey's Scouts were largely self-sufficient. Organic to the unit
were farriers, smiths, saddlers and veterinarians. The
17
organization of the unit less service support is shown in Figure
2 (2:20).
The following capabilities and advantages of Grey's Scouts have
been cited:
0 A horse could carry a quarter of its weight
(approximately 330 lbs) and were used to carry
mortars, mines and explosives (4:213).
0 Horses offered speed of reaction (4:213).
0 Horses were quiet (4:212).
0 Horses could extend the range of a ground
patrol (average 40 kilometers/day) (2:20).
0 Horses increase the rider's field of visibility
thus improving the rider's ability to track

[roy elderkin]

Pat it is good to see that report, which I have not seen for a few years, you tend to forget these things. It is all the more important to me as this is the 36 aniversary of the creation of Grey's. And with friends and former soldiers, now in the twilight of their lives it becomes more important that they are remembered. I would like to thank the forum for retaining some of its history.