Prices at the Dawn of the Gasoline Age, Dusk of the Equine

[Joseph Sullivan]

That is true of all industries. In fact, industry life cycles are well-studied in the business schools and by economists. Over time there will be consolidation, after which the giants dominate, then become bureaucratic and ossify, and are often swept away by new rounds of innovation.

[Pat Holscher]

Diesel is down to $1.96/gallon here now. A huge change from a few months ago. And, I heard on this morning's news that the crude supply is now so high, that we're stored up to capacity, and producers are leasing tankers at $75,000/month just for the storage.

I suppose this is a byproduct of the economic downturn, but what a volatile market. With this decline, given the inflation rate, I suppose we're back to way cheap fuel, sort of.

[Pat Holscher]

Here's an interesting item republished by the Casper Star Tribune about a Natrona Tribune article from this week in 1909. n The livery stable, as we can see, was using a car in the furtherance of its business.

Natrona County Tribune, 1909

Horses to horsepower -- "N. M. Castle this week bought a twenty-two horse power 'Reo' automobile from the factory at Lansing, Mich., and he will use it in connection with his livery business. Thorough tests have been made with the machine during the past week and it has proven satisfactory in every particular, climbing hills, going through sand and mud and going at a high rate of speed. The 'Reo' is considered one of the best machines built. Mr. Castle has accepted the agency of the company in Casper."

One of each -- "The '09 Graduating Class.

"The '09 graduating class from the Casper High school is the smallest in number that we have had for several years, there being but two--Miss Mildred Hicks and John Trevett, but arrangements are being made for an elaborate program at the end of the school year, and just as much interest will be taken in the exercises as though there were a dozen graduates."

[Pat Holscher]

Here's an interesting item republished by the Casper Star Tribune about a Natrona Tribune article from this week in 1909. n The livery stable, as we can see, was using a car in the furtherance of its business.

Natrona County Tribune, 1909

Horses to horsepower -- "N. M. Castle this week bought a twenty-two horse power 'Reo' automobile from the factory at Lansing, Mich., and he will use it in connection with his livery business. Thorough tests have been made with the machine during the past week and it has proven satisfactory in every particular, climbing hills, going through sand and mud and going at a high rate of speed. The 'Reo' is considered one of the best machines built. Mr. Castle has accepted the agency of the company in Casper."

One of each -- "The '09 Graduating Class.

"The '09 graduating class from the Casper High school is the smallest in number that we have had for several years, there being but two--Miss Mildred Hicks and John Trevett, but arrangements are being made for an elaborate program at the end of the school year, and just as much interest will be taken in the exercises as though there were a dozen graduates."

A little more on the 09 Reo:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 946997D6CF

[JV Puleo]

Pat,
That would have been a thumping big two cylinder REO. 20 HP is about as big as 2 cylinder cars ever got...it would have had pistons the size of paint buckets. The next year they brought out their 4 cylinder Model R - it was rated at 30 HP and had 4 1/4 in pistons so I suspect the 20HP had them about 5" in diameter. The 2 was probably a good choice of Wyoming. They were rugged cars with lots of ground clearance. REO always had a good reputation in places with rough roads and extremes of temperature. They were famous cold-weather starters.

I had two of the Model Rs, a 10 and an 11. Those were also the last years for the 2 cylinder cars. In 12 they brought out a 4 cylinder car called "Reo the Fifth" with a famous ad the headline of which was "My Farewell Car" by Ransome Olds. The point of the ad was that the automobile had gone about as far as it could and if you bought a 1912 REO it would be a long time before you'd need another car.

R-E-O are the initials of the founder of the founder of the company, R.E. Olds. When he was forced out of Oldsmobile he couldn't use his own name (which was trademarked) for his new company.

[Couvi]

Pat,
That would have been a thumping big two cylinder REO. 20 HP is about as big as 2 cylinder cars ever got...it would have had pistons the size of paint buckets. The next year they brought out their 4 cylinder Model R - it was rated at 30 HP and had 4 1/4 in pistons so I suspect the 20HP had them about 5" in diameter. The 2 was probably a good choice of Wyoming. They were rugged cars with lots of ground clearance. REO always had a good reputation in places with rough roads and extremes of temperature. They were famous cold-weather starters.

I had two of the Model Rs, a 10 and an 11. Those were also the last years for the 2 cylinder cars. In 12 they brought out a 4 cylinder car called "Reo the Fifth" with a famous ad the headline of which was "My Farewell Car" by Ransome Olds. The point of the ad was that the automobile had gone about as far as it could and if you bought a 1912 REO it would be a long time before you'd need another car.

R-E-O are the initials of the founder of the founder of the company, R.E. Olds. When he was forced out of Oldsmobile he couldn't use his own name (which was trademarked) for his new company.

Joe,

Was there not a REO truck at one time?

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,
That would have been a thumping big two cylinder REO. 20 HP is about as big as 2 cylinder cars ever got...it would have had pistons the size of paint buckets. The next year they brought out their 4 cylinder Model R - it was rated at 30 HP and had 4 1/4 in pistons so I suspect the 20HP had them about 5" in diameter. The 2 was probably a good choice of Wyoming. They were rugged cars with lots of ground clearance. REO always had a good reputation in places with rough roads and extremes of temperature. They were famous cold-weather starters.

I had two of the Model Rs, a 10 and an 11. Those were also the last years for the 2 cylinder cars. In 12 they brought out a 4 cylinder car called "Reo the Fifth" with a famous ad the headline of which was "My Farewell Car" by Ransome Olds. The point of the ad was that the automobile had gone about as far as it could and if you bought a 1912 REO it would be a long time before you'd need another car.

R-E-O are the initials of the founder of the founder of the company, R.E. Olds. When he was forced out of Oldsmobile he couldn't use his own name (which was trademarked) for his new company.

Joe,

Was there not a REO truck at one time?

Yes there was, the REO Speed Wagon, as opposed to the REO Speedwagon, the latter being a bad 1970s era band. Somebody around here used to have an REO truck with a modern engine underneath the hood. My recollection is that the body was larger than other trucks of the same era, but I may be remembering that inaccurately.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,
That would have been a thumping big two cylinder REO. 20 HP is about as big as 2 cylinder cars ever got...it would have had pistons the size of paint buckets. The next year they brought out their 4 cylinder Model R - it was rated at 30 HP and had 4 1/4 in pistons so I suspect the 20HP had them about 5" in diameter. The 2 was probably a good choice of Wyoming. They were rugged cars with lots of ground clearance. REO always had a good reputation in places with rough roads and extremes of temperature. They were famous cold-weather starters.

I had two of the Model Rs, a 10 and an 11. Those were also the last years for the 2 cylinder cars. In 12 they brought out a 4 cylinder car called "Reo the Fifth" with a famous ad the headline of which was "My Farewell Car" by Ransome Olds. The point of the ad was that the automobile had gone about as far as it could and if you bought a 1912 REO it would be a long time before you'd need another car.

R-E-O are the initials of the founder of the founder of the company, R.E. Olds. When he was forced out of Oldsmobile he couldn't use his own name (which was trademarked) for his new company.

It's a bit of a shock to realize that we're discussing automobiles that were used a century ago. Hard to imagine. Even more of an odd thought to realize, in your case, you actually owned two cars that will be a century old quite soon. I think the newspaper article sort of emphasizes that, as the livery stable owner was setting himself up as a dealer for REOs, at the same time he was using his car in the livery business.

A two cylinder car is a little hard to imagine. They must have made a very distinct sound.

[JV Puleo]

REO cars had such a good reputation for being rugged and good starters in bad weather that they became very with farmers who often simply took the body off the car and fitted a home made "pickup" bed. The company picked up on this and brought out a line of pickups based roughly on the car chassis. The best known is the REO Speedwagon (a real vehicle, not the name of a pop music group) - a light truck designed to be able to go as fast as an ordinary automobile. This was something new in trucks, almost revolutionary since until then most trucks were geared so low that 30 MPH was about all you could expect.

During the depression only the line of trucks continued to sell so the cars were dropped and REO became exclusively a truck company, moving into heavier and heavier trucks. They merged with Diamond T in 1967, became Diamond Reo and finally went out of business in 1975.

[Pat Holscher]

REO cars had such a good reputation for being rugged and good starters in bad weather that they became very with farmers who often simply took the body off the car and fitted a home made "pickup" bed. The company picked up on this and brought out a line of pickups based roughly on the car chassis. The best known is the REO Speedwagon (a real vehicle, not the name of a pop music group) - a light truck designed to be able to go as fast as an ordinary automobile. This was something new in trucks, almost revolutionary since until then most trucks were geared so low that 30 MPH was about all you could expect.

During the depression only the line of trucks continued to sell so the cars were dropped and REO became exclusively a truck company, moving into heavier and heavier trucks. They merged with Diamond T in 1967, became Diamond Reo and finally went out of business in 1975.

I wondered about the Diamond Reos and whether there was a connection. I sort of dimly recall that Diamond Reo made engines that occasionally showed up in other trucks, but I may be recalling that inaccurately.

It's interesting how some early trucks were named "wagon", showing basically that they were replacing wagons. The Speed Wagon is one such example. Another well known one is the Dodge heavy pickup that was known as the Power Wagon. That name still have enough currency in it that one of the current Dodge pickups is being called that once again.

I suppose another example, albeit not one involving a truck, is the Volkswagen. That's usually translated as People's Car, but it seems to me that People's Wagon is just as good of translation. The Unimog, which of course is outside the pickup class, literally sought to replace wagons and draft horses on German farms, and is actually a contraction of Universalmotorgerät, Universal Motorized Device.

One thing related to this thread, and which I was pondering as I dropped my Dodge 3500 off for servicing last night, is the current state of the American automobile industry and the former plethora of automobile companies. Some pundits, and the U.S. government, opine that Chrysler is "too small" to survive, and for that reason the government is presiding over a shotgun wedding between Chrysler and Fiat. You'd never know that Chrysler was in any sort of trouble here, as Dodge pickups are extremely popular, and have made significant inroads into territory formerly occupied by Ford (I'm seeing a lot of diesel Dodge's show up ranch use now, reclaiming a spot that they lost some time the 70s). Anyhow, while I'm not any sort of expert on the topic, and I'm not anywhere close to having an understanding of all this, it's curious that a country of 125 million could support all sorts of car companies, while one with a population in excess of 300 million can support only two (domestic) ones. Odd.

[mnhorse]

Some pundits, and the U.S. government, opine that Chrysler is "too small" to survive, and for that reason the government is presiding over a shotgun wedding between Chrysler and Fiat.

Lord have mercy on the institutions and management of Chrysler, if there is a merge with FIAT.
I've been thru it and wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Richard

[Pat Holscher]

REO cars had such a good reputation for being rugged and good starters in bad weather that they became very with farmers who often simply took the body off the car and fitted a home made "pickup" bed.

Reflecting changes in road conditions, it's interesting how many older cars were really fairly suitable for rough country driving at one time. Clearances were pretty high, they seem to be relatively low geared, etc.

This was even true of cars into the early 50s. I drove a 1954 Chevrolet sedan I had for many years, and even though I had a pickup truck at the time, I often took it fishing, as it had plenty of clearance for average dirt roads.

[Pat Holscher]

Re Fiat, FWIW, it's also looking at buying Opel from GM. It must be doing well.

[Pat Holscher]

Most of the famous German engines were in-line 6s. There were two round engine forms, radial and rotary. It was the rotary engines that spun. The most famous are the Bentley Rotarys, BR1 and BR2 that powered the Sopwith Camel. They were very difficult to take off because as soon as the airplane left the ground it wanted to turn over on its side. Landing would have been just as dangerous but I believe that many pilots simply cut their engines before getting too close and glided in. By the end of the war the inline and V engines had really taken over. The Vickers-Vimy bomber was powered by RR Eagles, a V-8 and the famous SE5 used a Hispano-Suiza - I forget how many cylinders. By 1918 some of these, like the RR Eagles could withstand hundreds of hours running a full throttle. My own feeling is that WWI contributed more to engine design than any other era. But, it took a long time for many advances to make the transition to mainstream production.

In the end the Bentley Rotarys were probably the most successful of the "round" engines. Camels found right-hand turns difficult but could snap around to the left with lightening speed (or vice versa...I don't remember which way they spun). Bentley was Walter Owen Bentley who went on to found Bentley Motors and win the Grand-Prix something like three years in a row in the 20s. When his company went under it was bought by RR who used the name and distinctive radiator on a "hotted-up" version of their own small horsepower car. Bentley also invented the aluminum piston and attributed several pre-WWI racing victories to it. He had kept the aluminum pistons such a secret that it came as a shock when he showed up in the office of Adm. Mansfield Cummings with a piston in his brief case and offered his invention to the nation. He was commissioned into the Royal Navy in 1914 despite having absolutely no Naval or Military experience and, writing in the early 70s, mentioned that he was never demobilized, apparently making him the oldest Lieutenant in the Royal Navy.

jvp

Film of replica WWI aviation engine working:

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/projects ... rii-action

[Larry Emrick]

Reading the above got me wondering: Is it possible the horse will outlive the internal combustion engine ?
I don't see society returning to the use of horses in transportation and industry, but I can imagine a time in the future (with four vehicles in the drive, not in my lifetime, I hope) that other forms of power will consign gas\diesel engined-vehicles to the buggy scrap heap, while those hay-burners in the paddock just keep on eating.
Which leads me to another thought on the subject of alternative power.
I put a thermometer in my manure pile a couple of warm days ago and it shot up to 108 dregees F, which got me thinking about how I could harness and use all that heat. The first and obvious answer is to use it to heat the greenhouse, but with a little ingenuity I could also heat water.
As it is we get the 15' by 5' bin cleared about ever six or eight weeks , which costs over $100, and the trucker sells it on to a topsoil manufactuer.
There is a large and growing interest where I live in Vancouver Canada in returning to private and community gardens and small-plot agriculture and this time of the year gardeners are delighted to get manure, especially since it's free.
Just to keep this on topic, I wondered how manure was disposed of behind the lines during WW1.
The History of the Canadian Army Veterinary Corps says among other things:
"The manure left behind by the armies will be advantageous to the agricultural communities of the war zones, a valuable legacy, from which the surrounding lands will benefit for many years to come."
In summer it was also dried and burned which helped keep the flies away.

Larry

[mnhorse]

Horse manure is excellent fertilizer, with a couple big IFs.
Before applying to your garden take into account:
1- what has the horse been eating.
2- how "decomposed" is the manure
3- did the composting temperature rise high enough to kill any seeds present.

Many years ago, back when we had a vegetable garden & lots of horse manure, we applied it liberallly to the garden plot and tilled it in.
We got a tremendous crop of GIANT FOXTAIL, a nasty grass whose seed either sprout the first Spring or lie dormant in the soil for years.

As it turned out, some of our "cheap" hay was full of foxtail, the horses ate it with relish and the hard coated seed pass thru both the digestion process and composting unharmed.
Fifteen years later, we sold that property. The old garden plot having reverted to "lawn" was still a foxtail plot.

Richard

[Pat Holscher]

Reading the above got me wondering: Is it possible the horse will outlive the internal combustion engine ?
I don't see society returning to the use of horses in transportation and industry, but I can imagine a time in the future (with four vehicles in the drive, not in my lifetime, I hope) that other forms of power will consign gas\diesel engined-vehicles to the buggy scrap heap, while those hay-burners in the paddock just keep on eating.

Interesting point. Having never been completely replaced by the internal combustion engine, they may well still be in some employments at that time at which the internal combustion engine has been replaced by something else.

Which leads me to another thought on the subject of alternative power.
I put a thermometer in my manure pile a couple of warm days ago and it shot up to 108 dregees F, which got me thinking about how I could harness and use all that heat. The first and obvious answer is to use it to heat the greenhouse, but with a little ingenuity I could also heat water.
As it is we get the 15' by 5' bin cleared about ever six or eight weeks , which costs over $100, and the trucker sells it on to a topsoil manufactuer.
There is a large and growing interest where I live in Vancouver Canada in returning to private and community gardens and small-plot agriculture and this time of the year gardeners are delighted to get manure, especially since it's free.
Just to keep this on topic, I wondered how manure was disposed of behind the lines during WW1.
The History of the Canadian Army Veterinary Corps says among other things:
"The manure left behind by the armies will be advantageous to the agricultural communities of the war zones, a valuable legacy, from which the surrounding lands will benefit for many years to come."
In summer it was also dried and burned which helped keep the flies away.

Larry

Somewhere around here we have a thread on methane gas from horse manure being piped into some bunkers for fuel in WWI.

[Pat Holscher]

Another interesting look back by our local newspaper:

Monday, May 4, 2009 2:02 AM MDT

Natrona County Tribune, 1909

A trip to write about -- "AN auto-stage line is to be established between Shoshoni and Thermopolis in the near future, and every editor in the state is hoping that the gasoline wagon will be in operation before the meeting of the Press association."

Shoshoni is a little tiny town, and Thermopolis is a about 50 or so miles north of it, through Wind River Canyon. I bet the trip was quite an adventure in 1909.

[Pat Holscher]

Another interesting look back by our local newspaper:

Monday, May 4, 2009 2:02 AM MDT

Natrona County Tribune, 1909

A trip to write about -- "AN auto-stage line is to be established between Shoshoni and Thermopolis in the near future, and every editor in the state is hoping that the gasoline wagon will be in operation before the meeting of the Press association."

Shoshoni is a little tiny town, and Thermopolis is a about 50 or so miles north of it, through Wind River Canyon. I bet the trip was quite an adventure in 1909.

I looked it up, the distance is only 32 miles, but given as the present route is through the canyon, it seems longer.

Shoshoni in 1908:



The view from Thermopolis looking south, toward the mountain range which the proposed stage line would have run over.



The view of Thermopolis in 1918, as you'd be driving into town from the south.

[Pat Holscher]

As an aside in this thread, I started to watch the film Seabiscuit the other day. My wife bought it a while back, but we hadn't had the opportunity to view it. I've still only seen about the first 30 to 45 minutes.

Anyhow, I though the start of this film gave a very nice cinematic portrayal to the introduction of the automobile. I'm not sure that I've seen it quite as well portrayed in another film, and at least the first 30 minutes or so of the film is sort of a nice illustration to some of the things discussed here.