Trooper Savee, Ft. Riley, 1941

[kerry savee]

My father at Ft. Riley in 1941.





Pictures of my father, Capt. Ken Savee. He was about the same size as us, 5'7" or thereabouts, so his horse might look bigger than it actually was (though he did say it was one of the biggest in the Troop). I don't know the exact date that these were taken, but he was transferred to Ft. Riley in the spring of 1941 and subsequently assigned to the 2nd Cavalry Machinegun Troop. By August he had been promoted to sergeant. The Troop was deployed to protect Parker Dam just after Pearl Harbor was attacked. By August of 1942 he had completed OCS and was appointed 2nd lieutenant. He went on to serve as a navigator in a B-24 Liberator flying initially out of North Africa and then Italy. I have his collar discs from his service in the cavalry as well as his Distinguished Flying Cross from his service in the Army Air Corps.

I read with interest the post by Stablesgt regarding the uniform and boots worn by troopers in the thread on the 1st Army on Maneuvers. As opposed to the troopers in the photo by Stablesgt, I noticed that in the photo of my father mounted on his horse, Chester, it appears that he is not wearing breeches and his pants are unbloused over the top of his boots or shoes. Also, in the picture with the machinegun, I think he is wearing a denim fatigue uniform. Perhaps those of you with sharper eyes and expertise can help identify the uniforms he is wearing.

Kerry

"ride your horse forward and set him straight" Gustav Steinbrecht

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by kerry savee
Pictures of my father, Capt. Ken Savee. He was about the same size as us, 5'7" or thereabouts, so his horse might look bigger than it actually was (though he did say it was one of the biggest in the Troop). I don't know the exact date that these were taken, but he was transferred to Ft. Riley in the spring of 1941 and subsequently assigned to the 2nd Cavalry Machinegun Troop. By August he had been promoted to sergeant. The Troop was deployed to protect Parker Dam just after Pearl Harbor was attacked. By August of 1942 he had completed OCS and was appointed 2nd lieutenant. He went on to serve as a navigator in a B-24 Liberator flying initially out of North Africa and then Italy. I have his collar discs from his service in the cavalry as well as his Distinguished Flying Cross from his service in the Army Air Corps.

I read with interest the post by Stablesgt regarding the uniform and boots worn by troopers in the thread on the 1st Army on Maneuvers. As opposed to the troopers in the photo by Stablesgt, I noticed that in the photo of my father mounted on his horse, Chester, it appears that he is not wearing breeches and his pants are unbloused over the top of his boots or shoes. Also, in the picture with the machinegun, I think he is wearing a denim fatigue uniform. Perhaps those of you with sharper eyes and expertise can help identify the uniforms he is wearing.

Kerry

"ride your horse forward and set him straight" Gustav Steinbrecht

Your father is the third cavalryman I've heard of who personally relates WWII Air Corps service. It's interesting.

A coworker of mine was discharged from the 115th Cavalry when they were called up in 1940 for being underaged. He ended up serving as a navigator in a B-24, like your father, and also flew out of North Africa and then Italy. What unit was your father in?

Another coworker's father was in the 115th in the 30s here, and then joined the Army when WWII broke out. He ended up a B-25 pilot, and was shot down over Czechoslovakia. He spent the rest of the war as a POW of the Germans.

Pat

[kerry savee]

Pat,

My father's bomber team became a replacement crew for the 831st Squadron of the 485th Bomber Group at Venosa, Italy. On his sixth combat mission, Sept. 13, 1944, his B-24 was damaged by enemy anti-aircraft fire and the crew was forced to bail out over enemy held Yugoslavia. His buddy, Jack Carter (pilot), was killed when his parachute snagged on a precipice during descent and his body smashed against the rock face. Other members of the crew were: Bill Barbour (co-pilot) and Perry Mee (bombardier). Partisans (who were most likely Serbs) were intrumental in returning the crew to friendly lines. My father flew twenty-five additional combat missions after his return from Yugoslavia and advanced to Captain and the position of Squadron Staff Navigator.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

[kerry savee]

Pat,

Regarding former cavalrymen serving in the Air Corps, I like to think that horsemen are a cut above the average which qualifies them for more advanced service whether it be in the military or civilian arenas of endeavor.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

[kerry savee]

Sam,

Thanks for identifying the uniforms. I must admit my ignorance but what does HBT stand for? Do you also happen to know if they had another style of boot other than the tall riding boots, possibly something that they would wear for stable duty? It doesn't look like he is wearing the mounted service boot but it is hard to tell since the pants are covering the boots. Thanks again.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by kerry savee
Sam,

Thanks for identifying the uniforms. I must admit my ignorance but what does HBT stand for? Do you also happen to know if they had another style of boot other than the tall riding boots, possibly something that they would wear for stable duty? It doesn't look like he is wearing the mounted service boot but it is hard to tell since the pants are covering the boots. Thanks again.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

Herring Bone Tweed. The green HBT uniform came in right after the blue denims, I believe, and served in a variety of related fatigue, and then combat, uniforms in WWII. It was a pretty nice fabric, and served, I believe, a similar function to the Vietnam Era Rip Stop fabric.

Sam once pointed out, in a question that I posted similar to your here, that the troopers in the WWII cavalry Army films are wearing overalls over their breeches. I supect you might be seeing that here. On the other hand, I've seen photos of mule instructors wearing green cotton uniforms with three strap boots. I think that's evidence, in both cases, that troops preferred to get easy washing cotton uniforms dirty over other uniforms. In training at Ft. Riley it's quite common to see the fatigue uniform being worn in the field. Without knowing for sure, I suspect that your father here was wearing HBTs with 1931 lace up boots, but I don't know that for sure.

The other common boot that existed at this time was the service shoe. The service shoe is an ankle high boot, build on the same last. It was used for a very long time, and did serve as a mounted boot when worn with the mounted leggings. However starting in the 30s, mounted troops were issued a special boot, rather than the service shoe, for most things, and maybe all things. The Army tended to use one shoe for everything for enlisted men, so their dress uniform, like their field uniform (those uniforms being pretty much the same uniform) all used the same boot.

Having said all that, I don't know that cavalrymen weren't issued service shoes for fatigue duty. I have a photo of troopers of the 115th in which they seem to be wearing service shoes as well, although they might be mechanized cavalrymen. Perhaps somebody else knows for sure if cavalrymen were also issued a pair of service shoes.

Pat

[kerry savee]

Thanks Pat. I never would have figured out the acronym HBT. The reason I asked about the boots is that I think I can make out a tread pattern on the bottom of my father's right boot but the picture quality makes it difficult. In one of his stories he mentioned that the tall lace-up boots made his calves cramp severely until they were broken-in. I was under the impression that the 1931 mounted service boot had a smooth leather sole but I could be mistaken. I wore an original pair at the OCS graduation ceremony at Camp San Luis Obispo a few weeks ago while portraying a mounted Army officer (the rest of the uniform was all original, too). The pair of boots I wore had rubber tap-soles but I think they were added on.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by kerry savee
Thanks Pat. I never would have figured out the acronym HBT. The reason I asked about the boots is that I think I can make out a tread pattern on the bottom of my father's right boot but the picture quality makes it difficult. In one of his stories he mentioned that the tall lace-up boots made his calves cramp severely until they were broken-in. I was under the impression that the 1931 mounted service boot had a smooth leather sole but I could be mistaken. I wore an original pair at the OCS graduation ceremony at Camp San Luis Obispo a few weeks ago while portraying a mounted Army officer (the rest of the uniform was all original, too). The pair of boots I wore had rubber tap-soles but I think they were added on.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

All the original lace up cavalry boots and the three strap boots used by the Army in the 30s and 40s were leather soled.

However, at least cut down three strap boots were then half soled with a rubber sole. I've seen that in photos, and I have a pair of those boots which I'm pretty sure were half soled around that time. I don't know, however, if this was simply something the soldiers had done themselves, or if the Army actually had it done. I've never seen any suggestion the alteration of the three strap boots down to two straps was official, but it certainly seems to have been pretty common.

The long lasting service shoe id vary in construction and configuration over its long service life. Peacetime boots were less stout than wartime. At least some time late in its use these boots came half soled with a rubber sole. Earlier they were leather soled. Chippewah, the boot manufacturer, still makes this boot, in a heavy leather version.

One of the things that's easy to miss about WWII is the large amount of uniform variety. Varieties in various items were much greater in WWII, in spite of the need to equip a large number of men, than they would be later. In terms of official boots, for example, the US had, as official boots of one kind or another, three strap boots, riding boots, service shoes, M1943 combat boots, low ankle roughout boots, a roughout boot bought from the UK which was hobnailed, paratrooper boots, a mountaineering boot, a rare jungle boot, a canvas hot weather boot, shoe packs, and a high boot used by engineers in the US. During the war the attempt was slowly made to phase some of these out, such as the M1943 boot being situated to replace the service shoe and paratrooper boot, but it never really happened.

Pat

[Joseph Sullivan]

I love the concept of "uniform variety." Sounds like a 20th Century PC catchphrase.

Joe

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Joseph Sullivan
I love the concept of "uniform variety." Sounds like a 20th Century PC catchphrase.

Joe

LOL!

I hadn't thought of that, but uniform variety is an oxymoron.

Having said that, in spite of the plethora of after market uniform venders now, the armed forces are much more uniform in their appearance. Now it's not that easy to tell a paratrooper, from a distance, to an office worker. They probably both are wearing their ACUs and have their boots bloused. Paratrooper boots have long been an okay item for any soldier (although I don't know if they're around at all now) and only the color of the berets are distinct.

In WWII, however, a paratrooper could be distinguished at a glance by their boots, and the huge patch on their overseas cap. In combat, their uniform included distinctive uniform items that only they wore. Cavalrymen and horse artillerymen could be identified at a glance by their boots. In the states, cavalrymen could be distinguished, after the war got rolling, by their retention of campaign hats.

USAAC personnel could be ided by their use of sheepskin coats, which even ground personnel wore. The A2 jacket was another giveaway, although paratroopers also wore it as a semi dress item.

In Northern Europe, US troops wore wool shirts and trousers, with some sort of cotton shirt and trousers over them, and one of the variety of field jackets. In warmer climates some troops wore only HBTs, or later variants of cotton clothing. In the Pacific all troops look only vaguely like soldiers, and cotton predominated. Normally we see the OD cotton uniforms being worn, but you'll see AAA troops wearing khaki in the field some times. It was an amazing variety.

Pat

[mike.bunting]

Pat,

I saw in a uniform shop outside Ft. Jackson tan rough-out boots made in the style of paratroop boots. I don't recall the manufacturer, but they looked like Corcrans.

Mike Bunting

[John Fitzgerald]

Correct me if I'm wrong. I think the shoes service russet, the M1940, and the paratrooper boot are all built on the same last. At least they all look very similar.

John Fitzgerald
Eagle County, Colorado

Ride'm like you stole'm

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by mike.bunting
Pat,

I saw in a uniform shop outside Ft. Jackson tan rough-out boots made in the style of paratroop boots. I don't recall the manufacturer, but they looked like Corcrans.

Mike Bunting

Corcoran still makes a couple of boots they offer which are based on the old Paratrooper boot. One of those is a roughout tan paratrooper boot, with half soles, et. al.

What I'm not sure of is whether those boots enjoy any actual military recognition of any kind, official or not.

It is quite a change. The paratrooper boot has been with us for overy 60 years now, and once was regarded as the very symbol of a paratrooper. Regular troops were not even supposed to wear them at one time, but that changed in the 1950s and any troop could by and wear them. They were quite a popular item with troops, particularly career NCOs, up in to at least the 1980s. It would be somewhat sad to see them go, although some later boot designs, such as the Ft. Lewis boot, would have appeared to eclipse them.

Pat

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by John Fitzgerald
Correct me if I'm wrong. I think the shoes service russet, the M1940, and the paratrooper boot are all built on the same last. At least they all look very similar.

John Fitzgerald
Eagle County, Colorado

Ride'm like you stole'm

I think so. Indeed, I think the 1931 lace up boots were too. If they weren't all built on the same last, they are certainly all very similar designs.

In the 1940s the Army adopted a combat boot that it used from then in to the 1950s which also was very similar. It's hard to tell the difference between them and paratrooper boots at a glance. That boot was phased out in the early 60s or late 50s, although I think supplies of them in little used sizes continued on for some time.

Pat

[kerry savee]

Sam,

Would the coveralls be worn over the breeches and tall riding boots?

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Sam Cox
Well in reality both however the official line is under the HBT suit
but i have pics confirming that both happened

Sam

Sam Cox

I wonder if that was a training expedient to cut down on laundering wool?

Pat

[kerry savee]

Pat & Sam,

Thank you both for your experience and sharp eyes in identifying the uniforms and how they were worn. Pat, thanks for the reference to the Army equitation tapes (I have the full set). I'll look more closely at the trainee troopers' and how they are wearing their uniforms next time I view them. Sam, I'm wondering if, in addition to keeping the trainees' wool uniform clean as Pat has suggested, it may be a case of layering the clothing to ward off chilly temperatures. I don't know what the weather is like in Kansas during springtime but I understand that cold winds can blow down from the north across the plains. I'm assuming that these photos were taken early in my father's training (he was assigned to Ft. Riley in the spring of 1941) since there is no evidence of rank, he is riding with only a snaffle bit, and he is handling the reins in a somewhat casual one-handed manner.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by kerry savee
Pat & Sam,

Thank you both for your experience and sharp eyes in identifying the uniforms and how they were worn. Pat, thanks for the reference to the Army equitation tapes (I have the full set). I'll look more closely at the trainee troopers' and how they are wearing their uniforms next time I view them. Sam, I'm wondering if, in addition to keeping the trainees' wool uniform clean as Pat has suggested, it may be a case of layering the clothing to ward off chilly temperatures. I don't know what the weather is like in Kansas during springtime but I understand that cold winds can blow down from the north across the plains. I'm assuming that these photos were taken early in my father's training (he was assigned to Ft. Riley in the spring of 1941) since there is no evidence of rank, he is riding with only a snaffle bit, and he is handling the reins in a somewhat casual one-handed manner.

Kerry

<i>"ride your horse forward and set him straight"</i> Gustav Steinbrecht

On the tapes, the coveralls show up in the portion of the tapes where the troopers are in the field. It's all the way near the end of the tape, I think.

And I'd guess that perhaps layering was an idea. The Army started using layers of clothing about this time, which was sort of a new concept. The Army had thought of issuing camouflage coveralls to troops, to be worn over their wool uniforms, and experimented with that, which isn't that far removed. As it was, in Europe, troops did wear a HBT jacket and pants over their wool uniforms, at least some of the time.

At the same time, however, early in WWII you can find quite a few photos of troops training in HBTs, or in blue denim uniforms before that. We have some up elsewhere of horse artillery in fatigues at Ft. Riley. So, at least in part, I think the laundry advantages of cotton were in play.

Pat

[Sam Cox]

http://groups.msn.com/LifeatRiley/shoeb ... hotoID=341
above is hbt over boots





Sam

Sam Cox

[Pat Holscher]

Here’s some examples of fatigues or HBTs at Ft. Riley in 1942.

I think these are likely the blue denim fatigues:



Again, I think, but could be wrong, that these are blue denim fatigues:



This artilleryman is wearing a coveralls.



Artillerymen wearing fatigues and coveralls:



Mechanized cavalryman posing with Thompson M1928 submachinegun, and wearing overalls. Note how greasy they appear, which probably provides one of the reasons that we see troops in training wearing these.



And here's an interesting example. Trainer wearing some version of field pants at Camp Hale, Colorado, training troops of the 10th Mountain Division. Note the boots being worn by the trainer. The 10th included a high percentage of civilian outdoorsmen in the ranks and training staff, so it'd be interesting to know the background of the trainers here.


Photograph courtesy of the Denver Public Library, Western Heritage Department.
Pat


Pat