I agree that mounted police can be very effective in certain situations (both urban and non-urban). But in policing, as in most governmental activities, "money makes the world go around."
Mounted units are expensive. In urban areas they are VERY expensive. Few cities contain equine suitable facilites within city limits. In the few places where such exist they are private, very limited, and VERY expensive.
So, the first cost a department faces is construction of a stable and support facilities. Then they have to add trailers and tow vehicles (in few large cities would it be feasible to ride from a central facility to outlying patrol areas. There is the cost of training the mounted officers. Even if you get good horses and tack donated (a less than likely proposition) you still have fixed costs per horse whether they work or not. Horses do come up lame. "Fixing" a lame horse is not like changing a tire.
When this scenario goes in front of your MarkIMod0 city budget committee it will usually come out second best to bicycles, Harleys, or even those new scooter things. And we have not even talked about complaints about manure on the streets, smell from the stables, animal welfare/rights issues, etc.
Last, and maybe most inportant, American politicians like to see themselves as "foreward thinking." (Senior police officials in ANY organization are nothing if not VERY "political.") Mounted police, no matter what evidence you put out demonstrating effectiveness, are so "yesterday." Far better, for their self image, if the leaders put their money in Tasers and low emission vehicles and the "technology of the future."
Again, don't get me wrong, here. IMO there are many places in the urban environment where mounted officers could be VERY effective. (In a Knoxville mall a few years ago car theft and auto burglary were reaching epidemic proportions and assaults were being reported with increasing frequency. Management hired some mounted private security and crime of all types dropped like a stone. The program did not last, as the it was cheaper to pay for insurance to cover losses for which the mall management was responsible than it was to pay for the mounted security guards. There were also some insurance and liability issues. This was written up in one of the local papers but I don't remember all the details.)
About the only way I see a real and substantial increase in support for mounted policing would be for representatives or senators (from places like Texas or Tennessee or Kentucky where you have large equine interests) to turn some Federal "homeland security" dollars into "seed money" to finance a dramatic percentage of these costs for a significant period (like 5 years or so). This would give the mounted patrols a fair opportunity to prove their worth on a day to day basis. IMO they would do so, and local funding would then be much more likely.
But, I fear, this is just a nice daydream for a Saturday afternoon![:)]
Bill Kambic
Mounted Police Today
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Pat Holscher
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Combining thoughts offered by Ron, Jim, Landesjunge, and Bill, I'd offer the following.
I would have to agree that part of the reason mounted police forces are underemployed in the US today (taking it as assumed, for purposes of this argument, that they are underemployed) is budgetary. Also, I would have to agree with Bill that there's a certain number of local administrators who will go with a "higher tech" solution, no matter whether or not it works well, because it is preceived as more modern. This is also, I suspect, part of the reason we do not seem horse use in a military application with the US Army, amongst other reasons. Finally, I'd note that people become simply accustomed to doing things a certain way, and figure it is the way to do it, because they do it that way. In the US we are so used to using internal combustion engines for everything from moving large masses of people to blowing the leaves off the lawn, that many people can not conceive of doing things in any other fashion. This also impacts the civilian, and military, use of the horses for police work, I suspect.
Starting with the last point first, and making a point I've made here before in other contexts, it is simply not the case that any one thing is better than another because it is newer, nor is any one way of doing things better because it is newer. The test is getting the job done most efficiently. And, for some of the applications we are looking at here, it seems plain that the mounted policeman might get the job done most efficiently, in some situations.
Turning to military police, I have to confess that I did not conceive of this topic in that fashion when I started it. That is, I was really thinking in terms of civilan police forces, no mps, and mp use didn't occur to me. Having said that, however, I wondered if some horse use might not be a good thing in the months following the September 11 attack.
Probably all of us during that period of time saw National Guardsmen patrolling their local airports. For the most part, I just ran into them in the terminal. I wondered if they also patrolled the perimeter, but I never asked (probably not a good idea to ask). However, I did think that if a guy was to set out with that task, a mounted patrol would potentially be the best option. It is funny how efficient people think they are at spotting stuff from a vehicle, but it really isn't true. Oh sure, you can see a lot, but a person in a vehicle miss a lot to. Those who hunt from foot or horseback know this to be true, and certainly if you go to hunt up cows out of draws and whatnot, you find a lot more from a horse than you do from the truck. And anyone who has speant much time in the Army has probably, at some time, engaged in a little exercise where you crossed a road and had to evade being spotted near it from a wondering driver, or laid there by the side of the road waiting to ambush a convoy.
And vehicles are not stealthy. Modern military vehicles are downright noisy. Being aware of their presence is not difficult.
So, it occured to me, a nifty option for patrolling some sorts of fences and large open areas would be to do it by horse.
Unfortunately, this puts us back to the training and money issue. In the case of National Guardsmen, which is where I started out on this discourse, it obviously cannot be the case that you could train them all to ride. They already have to cram their regular MOS training into the hours of a weekend which, in spite of the derision some who aren't familiar with them give them, is a pretty serious task in a world in which you might go from being an accountant one day to a mortar man in Iraq the next. And it isn't like the riot training that Guardsmen used to (and maybe still do) recieve where over the course of a Saturday somebody can show the rudamentary adaption of the bayonet drill as it applies to a riot baton.
So spot training is a lost cause, and training the majority of them would be impossible.
And I suppose the Army might apply the same logic to regular MPs. After all, most MPs will never need to ride a horse, I suppose, and training them in all the regular police stuff, plus how to react to chemical hazards, guerillas, etc., a pretty big task.
Here, I suppose, that maybe the best that could be done is to train a certain percentage of the regulars. Maybe as a job specific type training, as in "MPs assigned to XYB in the FRG will undergo mounted patrol training", or "MPs assigned to garrsion duty in Region Y will undergo mounted police school". Perhaps alternatively, although it would be less effective, it could be one of those add on schools that get you a badge and a notation on your file, as in "Hey Fred, what's that patched with crossed sabers imposed on a muzzle loading pistol etc. . . ., why that's my Mounted Service School patch, . . ."
Back to Guardsmen, about the only way they could serve this way, absent MP units with specific training, would be through some sort of school like that, which only a percentage would (or have to?) go to. Maybe like that combat skills school they required NCOs to go to for awhiel in the 80s.
Well, like Bill mentions, probably just dreaming. It is a lot more likely that a soldier will be sent to a school some other thing before we ever see something like this, even if that other thing is only around for a few years.
Turning back to civilian police forces for a second, however, while on this topic. It also occurs to me that if the military, and by military any branch of it, was to engage in any sort of serious mounted MP work, that would probably result in a corresponding increase in civilian horse use. That may sound odd, but it has always been the case that, for some reason, police forces tend to follow the military on certain things if they believe there is an application. In the past twenty years, for example, we've seen the use of BDU style uniforms, kevlar helmets, adoption of the 9mm pistol for police use in large numbers, the large scale use of AR15 variants (including incresed use of carbine, M4 types), and any other number of things which are closely based on what the military uses. I'd bet that if various urban police forces bordering military areas saw MPs regularly patrolling on horseback, it wouldn't be long before somebody suggested that the city might want to do that too.
On the matter of costs and training, excellent points, but I think I'll leave that for another time, or more knowledgeable poster.
Pat
I would have to agree that part of the reason mounted police forces are underemployed in the US today (taking it as assumed, for purposes of this argument, that they are underemployed) is budgetary. Also, I would have to agree with Bill that there's a certain number of local administrators who will go with a "higher tech" solution, no matter whether or not it works well, because it is preceived as more modern. This is also, I suspect, part of the reason we do not seem horse use in a military application with the US Army, amongst other reasons. Finally, I'd note that people become simply accustomed to doing things a certain way, and figure it is the way to do it, because they do it that way. In the US we are so used to using internal combustion engines for everything from moving large masses of people to blowing the leaves off the lawn, that many people can not conceive of doing things in any other fashion. This also impacts the civilian, and military, use of the horses for police work, I suspect.
Starting with the last point first, and making a point I've made here before in other contexts, it is simply not the case that any one thing is better than another because it is newer, nor is any one way of doing things better because it is newer. The test is getting the job done most efficiently. And, for some of the applications we are looking at here, it seems plain that the mounted policeman might get the job done most efficiently, in some situations.
Turning to military police, I have to confess that I did not conceive of this topic in that fashion when I started it. That is, I was really thinking in terms of civilan police forces, no mps, and mp use didn't occur to me. Having said that, however, I wondered if some horse use might not be a good thing in the months following the September 11 attack.
Probably all of us during that period of time saw National Guardsmen patrolling their local airports. For the most part, I just ran into them in the terminal. I wondered if they also patrolled the perimeter, but I never asked (probably not a good idea to ask). However, I did think that if a guy was to set out with that task, a mounted patrol would potentially be the best option. It is funny how efficient people think they are at spotting stuff from a vehicle, but it really isn't true. Oh sure, you can see a lot, but a person in a vehicle miss a lot to. Those who hunt from foot or horseback know this to be true, and certainly if you go to hunt up cows out of draws and whatnot, you find a lot more from a horse than you do from the truck. And anyone who has speant much time in the Army has probably, at some time, engaged in a little exercise where you crossed a road and had to evade being spotted near it from a wondering driver, or laid there by the side of the road waiting to ambush a convoy.
And vehicles are not stealthy. Modern military vehicles are downright noisy. Being aware of their presence is not difficult.
So, it occured to me, a nifty option for patrolling some sorts of fences and large open areas would be to do it by horse.
Unfortunately, this puts us back to the training and money issue. In the case of National Guardsmen, which is where I started out on this discourse, it obviously cannot be the case that you could train them all to ride. They already have to cram their regular MOS training into the hours of a weekend which, in spite of the derision some who aren't familiar with them give them, is a pretty serious task in a world in which you might go from being an accountant one day to a mortar man in Iraq the next. And it isn't like the riot training that Guardsmen used to (and maybe still do) recieve where over the course of a Saturday somebody can show the rudamentary adaption of the bayonet drill as it applies to a riot baton.
So spot training is a lost cause, and training the majority of them would be impossible.
And I suppose the Army might apply the same logic to regular MPs. After all, most MPs will never need to ride a horse, I suppose, and training them in all the regular police stuff, plus how to react to chemical hazards, guerillas, etc., a pretty big task.
Here, I suppose, that maybe the best that could be done is to train a certain percentage of the regulars. Maybe as a job specific type training, as in "MPs assigned to XYB in the FRG will undergo mounted patrol training", or "MPs assigned to garrsion duty in Region Y will undergo mounted police school". Perhaps alternatively, although it would be less effective, it could be one of those add on schools that get you a badge and a notation on your file, as in "Hey Fred, what's that patched with crossed sabers imposed on a muzzle loading pistol etc. . . ., why that's my Mounted Service School patch, . . ."
Back to Guardsmen, about the only way they could serve this way, absent MP units with specific training, would be through some sort of school like that, which only a percentage would (or have to?) go to. Maybe like that combat skills school they required NCOs to go to for awhiel in the 80s.
Well, like Bill mentions, probably just dreaming. It is a lot more likely that a soldier will be sent to a school some other thing before we ever see something like this, even if that other thing is only around for a few years.
Turning back to civilian police forces for a second, however, while on this topic. It also occurs to me that if the military, and by military any branch of it, was to engage in any sort of serious mounted MP work, that would probably result in a corresponding increase in civilian horse use. That may sound odd, but it has always been the case that, for some reason, police forces tend to follow the military on certain things if they believe there is an application. In the past twenty years, for example, we've seen the use of BDU style uniforms, kevlar helmets, adoption of the 9mm pistol for police use in large numbers, the large scale use of AR15 variants (including incresed use of carbine, M4 types), and any other number of things which are closely based on what the military uses. I'd bet that if various urban police forces bordering military areas saw MPs regularly patrolling on horseback, it wouldn't be long before somebody suggested that the city might want to do that too.
On the matter of costs and training, excellent points, but I think I'll leave that for another time, or more knowledgeable poster.
Pat
Gentlemen
Here is a look at the City of Calgary's Mounted Police Unit. You have to scroll down the page to the SUPPORT SECTION and then click on the Mounted Unit title. This site should have several areas you can click through. http://www.gov.calgary.ab.ca/police/inside/frame1.html I noted the black western saddles and I have seen that they do wear cowboy hats for parades, but of course that is the city's "Cowtown" immage. On normal patrol they look a little more down to business. Notice that they are wearing riding boots and breeches. Interesting also is the fact that they are helping with the return/recovery of the "Canadian Horse" breed.
"ACER ET CELER"
Jack Kunst
Here is a look at the City of Calgary's Mounted Police Unit. You have to scroll down the page to the SUPPORT SECTION and then click on the Mounted Unit title. This site should have several areas you can click through. http://www.gov.calgary.ab.ca/police/inside/frame1.html I noted the black western saddles and I have seen that they do wear cowboy hats for parades, but of course that is the city's "Cowtown" immage. On normal patrol they look a little more down to business. Notice that they are wearing riding boots and breeches. Interesting also is the fact that they are helping with the return/recovery of the "Canadian Horse" breed.
"ACER ET CELER"
Jack Kunst
In referance to Pats comments about uniforms and equipment mimicking military I offetr this now that I am no longer subject to being fired for speaking my mind about law enforcement administration:
We had a saying in the ranks:
We drive patrol cars made and specified by people who do not use them
We were issued weapons by specified by people who did not have to defend a life with them
We wore uniforms designed and made by people who did not wear them
We operated under policies established by people who were exempt from them
We enforced laws written by people who were basically immune from them
We went home at the end of our shift proud of what we did and were ready to to do it again tomorrow.
Regards,
Sergeant Ron Smith
Retired Texas Peace Officer
We had a saying in the ranks:
We drive patrol cars made and specified by people who do not use them
We were issued weapons by specified by people who did not have to defend a life with them
We wore uniforms designed and made by people who did not wear them
We operated under policies established by people who were exempt from them
We enforced laws written by people who were basically immune from them
We went home at the end of our shift proud of what we did and were ready to to do it again tomorrow.
Regards,
Sergeant Ron Smith
Retired Texas Peace Officer
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Pat Holscher
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- Last Name: Holscher
As sort of a random thought here, we often hear about costs being a deterrant to mounted units. I'm sure they are indeed costly, but of course the costs that count are the costs of a mounted trooper as opposed to a patrolman. I wonder how that breaks down? I'm sure somebody has analyzed it, if only in a local context, but it is sort of an interesting question. The Crown Victorias and pickup trucks add up. The costs for a mounted unit do as well. But when considering the costs for vehicles, maintenance, fuel, etc., I wonder how much more a mounted unit costs over and above the costs for an equivalent number of patrolmen?
For rural officers the equation is probably different. There the horse is either simply an addition to what they are using, or perhaps something they use instead of a four wheeler. I suspect their costs to add on a horse may be lower than the costs for an urban unit to maintain a mounted patrolman.
Pat
For rural officers the equation is probably different. There the horse is either simply an addition to what they are using, or perhaps something they use instead of a four wheeler. I suspect their costs to add on a horse may be lower than the costs for an urban unit to maintain a mounted patrolman.
Pat
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Landsjunge
- Past Society Member
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- Last Name: Kalman
I'm not sure if this really follows the thread, but the attached link goes to the Michigan Horse Council Web site reporting a joint demo that was done with the Household Cav for the city of Milford here in Michigan.
The photo used in the article is of our recent trip to London - I'm the riding on the right holding the flag. For those of you that have been to London, we were facing Hyde Park when the picture was taken. We had just returned practicing Tent Tegging at Kennsington Palace down the road....
http://www.michiganhorsecouncil.com/lat ... ories.html
CPT Jeff Kalman
Military Police
USAR
The photo used in the article is of our recent trip to London - I'm the riding on the right holding the flag. For those of you that have been to London, we were facing Hyde Park when the picture was taken. We had just returned practicing Tent Tegging at Kennsington Palace down the road....
http://www.michiganhorsecouncil.com/lat ... ories.html
CPT Jeff Kalman
Military Police
USAR
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Pat Holscher
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- Last Name: Holscher
Denver mounted police, 1982. This part of Denver has cleaned up alot, but the look of the mounted police is similiar:
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10029706+X-29706
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10029705+X-29705
Pat
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10029706+X-29706
http://photoswest.org/cgi-bin/imager?10029705+X-29705
Pat
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Kelton Oliver
- Past Society Member
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- Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 1:58 pm
I noticed that the Security Forces at Little Rock Air Force Base use Australian saddles. I have trail-ridden extensively in an Australian saddle and it has a lot to recommend it, combining some of the best features of western and European saddles. Although heavier than an English saddle, it is considerably lighter than western saddles but is still extremely strong. It has numerous D-rings for gear. It is a very secure saddle, as the wings (known as "poleys") keep you firmly in the deep seat. Its most obvious disadvantage is that it is impossible to post in due to the poleys and I suspect that you are at a disadvantage for jumping, although I have jumped some ditches in mine.
If you doubt that police work, civilian or military, is greatly politicized, consider that the Air Force changed the title of the Security Police to Security Forces as a deliberate attempt to de-emphasize their law-enforcement role after a daughter of the then-Chief of Staff of the Air Force got a speeding ticket on an Air Force base. It's all about politics.
If you doubt that police work, civilian or military, is greatly politicized, consider that the Air Force changed the title of the Security Police to Security Forces as a deliberate attempt to de-emphasize their law-enforcement role after a daughter of the then-Chief of Staff of the Air Force got a speeding ticket on an Air Force base. It's all about politics.
Calling Pat Holscher & all you others: Try <www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/police> This website lists some 300 top USA "cop" sites & some overseas ones too.Canada,Ireland,UK,Australia. One of many mounted police sites I found. Rochester,NY has a nice site - <www.roadapplescom/horses.html> Vancouver has another unofficial site I found <www.geocities.com/mountedsquadhorse>
may need a special provider than our library system! Try <www.state.ma.us> Nice shots of Massachusetts Mtd unit troopers. You might the check for state police & try individual ones too. Cheers, Grant.
may need a special provider than our library system! Try <www.state.ma.us> Nice shots of Massachusetts Mtd unit troopers. You might the check for state police & try individual ones too. Cheers, Grant.
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Pat Holscher
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This photo from Dave Bragonier's somewhat crabby recollections of his career as a Wyoming Game Warden features a photo of a Wyoming Game warden on horseback in an idyllic situation. Nice depiction, this does demonstrate their uniform to the extent you can see it in this photo, although most of them never ride in the course of their duties.
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/09652 ... ZZZZZZ.jpg
Pat
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/09652 ... ZZZZZZ.jpg
Pat
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Kelton Oliver</i>
<br />I noticed that the Security Forces at Little Rock Air Force Base use Australian saddles. I have trail-ridden extensively in an Australian saddle and it has a lot to recommend it, combining some of the best features of western and European saddles. Although heavier than an English saddle, it is considerably lighter than western saddles but is still extremely strong. It has numerous D-rings for gear. It is a very secure saddle, as the wings (known as "poleys") keep you firmly in the deep seat. Its most obvious disadvantage is that it is impossible to post in due to the poleys and I suspect that you are at a disadvantage for jumping, although I have jumped some ditches in mine.
If you doubt that police work, civilian or military, is greatly politicized, consider that the Air Force changed the title of the Security Police to Security Forces as a deliberate attempt to de-emphasize their law-enforcement role after a daughter of the then-Chief of Staff of the Air Force got a speeding ticket on an Air Force base. It's all about politics.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Kelton,
The use of Australian saddles by the Air Force is a direct result of the Dallas PD. The trainer Sr. Corporal XXXX, was from DPD and they/he helped determine the equipment needs. The Aussie is used by them more for the security it offers the officer ifhe/she is involved in a fight while mounted.
DPD uses Stubben Siegfried MF Specials for training new troops and in service for veterans but will most likely stay with the Aussie.
Politics in Police work?[:0] No!!!!![?] Surely you jest?[^]
Regards,
Ron Smith
<br />I noticed that the Security Forces at Little Rock Air Force Base use Australian saddles. I have trail-ridden extensively in an Australian saddle and it has a lot to recommend it, combining some of the best features of western and European saddles. Although heavier than an English saddle, it is considerably lighter than western saddles but is still extremely strong. It has numerous D-rings for gear. It is a very secure saddle, as the wings (known as "poleys") keep you firmly in the deep seat. Its most obvious disadvantage is that it is impossible to post in due to the poleys and I suspect that you are at a disadvantage for jumping, although I have jumped some ditches in mine.
If you doubt that police work, civilian or military, is greatly politicized, consider that the Air Force changed the title of the Security Police to Security Forces as a deliberate attempt to de-emphasize their law-enforcement role after a daughter of the then-Chief of Staff of the Air Force got a speeding ticket on an Air Force base. It's all about politics.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Kelton,
The use of Australian saddles by the Air Force is a direct result of the Dallas PD. The trainer Sr. Corporal XXXX, was from DPD and they/he helped determine the equipment needs. The Aussie is used by them more for the security it offers the officer ifhe/she is involved in a fight while mounted.
DPD uses Stubben Siegfried MF Specials for training new troops and in service for veterans but will most likely stay with the Aussie.
Politics in Police work?[:0] No!!!!![?] Surely you jest?[^]
Regards,
Ron Smith
-
Pat Holscher
- Society Member
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- Last Name: Holscher
Interesting, but not super informative (or even totally technically accurate) web site on New York City's mounted police. Note that they use bit and bradoon.
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/trans ... unted.html
Also, in the equipment section, note the item on saddles. This claims tradition use of the McClellan saddle by the NYPD, with a special variant being designed for them in 1971. However, I was under the impression that the NYPD used a variant of the Whitman, which we had a link to in an earlier thread.
Pat
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/trans ... unted.html
Also, in the equipment section, note the item on saddles. This claims tradition use of the McClellan saddle by the NYPD, with a special variant being designed for them in 1971. However, I was under the impression that the NYPD used a variant of the Whitman, which we had a link to in an earlier thread.
Pat
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Camp Little
- Past Society Member
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- Last Name: Wiley
Hmmm, that 1860 McClellan in the photo in the equipment section looks like a M-1904 to me. They even have the stirrup strap placed and cinched under the quarter-straps. That would be fun to ride set up as such. [xx(]
Gentlemen: This thread is getting wonderful! Especially Trooper from the UK finding that superb Fort Riley bronze statue! Greg Bradley of NZ turning up the complete color listing of DRAGON's "Horst" & "Blitz" which I have. A superb model! Thanks Pat for reminding me too of the NYPD site, which I did one discover. They use grooms though & don't do all the hard work other mtd police do with their mounts! The other way to get at this is search for police uniforms. Traditional flared riding breeches & boots went from the New Jersey State police, but Rhode Island retains a very colorful uniform, & Massachusetts of course retains one, as do our Canadian Mounties. The "pegless wonders" came in with stretch material added. But there are still some wonderful side striped & colored breeks around used by police or state police or sheriff's depts. The Germans of course cut away the breeches material under the full leather strappings, & even ran a piece of wood up the back seam of riding boots to stop concertina falling of the shaft. Cutting away the inner lining on the calf side to give a rider greater feel of his horse's flanks! Then added a panel of suede leather to the saddle for maximum "adhesion"! Quite an all-embracing subject. With only traditional English tailors solving the breeches problem of the human knee! Sadly breeches making appears now to be a dying art? Witness the rotten loose trouser-like ones worn by international polo teams & nylon shapeless ones worn by jockeys! At one time correct breeks were "de riguer" for all serious riders! Cheers, Grant.
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Jim Ottevaere
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- Last Name: Ottevaere
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Grant</i>
[Witness the rotten loose trouser-like ones worn by international polo teams & nylon shapeless ones worn by jockeys! At one time correct breeks were "de riguer" for all serious riders! Cheers, Grant.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
As a former, and long time polo player, the "breeches" worn by about 90% of the players here in the U.S. are not breeches at all, but white Wrangler jeans. They wear better than expensive breeches, are more comfortable when playing sometimes 12 or more chukkars in the southern heat, and are about 20% of the cost of a good pair of polo breeches. Not surprising, the trend for these jeans started in Texas and the South West circuit about 20 years ago and moved to the high goal international circuit in Florida. Now just about all the players wear them. It took some of us old timer traditionalists a while to catch on, but all things change, except for the flimsy helmet players still wear.
[Witness the rotten loose trouser-like ones worn by international polo teams & nylon shapeless ones worn by jockeys! At one time correct breeks were "de riguer" for all serious riders! Cheers, Grant.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
As a former, and long time polo player, the "breeches" worn by about 90% of the players here in the U.S. are not breeches at all, but white Wrangler jeans. They wear better than expensive breeches, are more comfortable when playing sometimes 12 or more chukkars in the southern heat, and are about 20% of the cost of a good pair of polo breeches. Not surprising, the trend for these jeans started in Texas and the South West circuit about 20 years ago and moved to the high goal international circuit in Florida. Now just about all the players wear them. It took some of us old timer traditionalists a while to catch on, but all things change, except for the flimsy helmet players still wear.
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Pat Holscher
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim Ottevaere</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Grant</i>
[Witness the rotten loose trouser-like ones worn by international polo teams & nylon shapeless ones worn by jockeys! At one time correct breeks were "de riguer" for all serious riders! Cheers, Grant.
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As a former, and long time polo player, the "breeches" worn by about 90% of the players here in the U.S. are not breeches at all, but white Wrangler jeans. They wear better than expensive breeches, are more comfortable when playing sometimes 12 or more chukkars in the southern heat, and are about 20% of the cost of a good pair of polo breeches. Not surprising, the trend for these jeans started in Texas and the South West circuit about 20 years ago and moved to the high goal international circuit in Florida. Now just about all the players wear them. It took some of us old timer traditionalists a while to catch on, but all things change, except for the flimsy helmet players still wear.
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A while back while looking for a pair of new cowboy boots I noted that some polo boots have a distinctly western look to them. I wonder if this is also something that spread from the Southwest and Texas in to the game?
Pat
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Grant</i>
[Witness the rotten loose trouser-like ones worn by international polo teams & nylon shapeless ones worn by jockeys! At one time correct breeks were "de riguer" for all serious riders! Cheers, Grant.
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As a former, and long time polo player, the "breeches" worn by about 90% of the players here in the U.S. are not breeches at all, but white Wrangler jeans. They wear better than expensive breeches, are more comfortable when playing sometimes 12 or more chukkars in the southern heat, and are about 20% of the cost of a good pair of polo breeches. Not surprising, the trend for these jeans started in Texas and the South West circuit about 20 years ago and moved to the high goal international circuit in Florida. Now just about all the players wear them. It took some of us old timer traditionalists a while to catch on, but all things change, except for the flimsy helmet players still wear.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A while back while looking for a pair of new cowboy boots I noted that some polo boots have a distinctly western look to them. I wonder if this is also something that spread from the Southwest and Texas in to the game?
Pat
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Pat Holscher
- Society Member
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- Last Name: Holscher
This is a link to the Smith Worthington company which makes a saddle some of discussed a while back. At that time one of the regular participants identified this type of saddle as being the one that the New York police used at one time:
http://www.smithworthington.com/saddles ... Police.htm
Pat
http://www.smithworthington.com/saddles ... Police.htm
Pat
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Kelton Oliver
- Past Society Member
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- Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 1:58 pm
Jim, how does a polo saddle differ from an all-purpose saddle? I've never examined one, but from the photos they don't look much different.
[quote]Originally posted by Pat Holscher
http://www.smithworthington.com/saddles ... Police.htm
Pat[/quote[
Appears to be the descendant of the old Whitman officers saddle - I've seen this shape in a few saddletree catalogs from the 1970s/80s shown as the "Dragoon" pattern (purely marketing name, no military connection). It is essentially a beefed-up Whitman with odd high placement of stirrup loops to give look of typical flat saddle. Makes sense as Smith-Worthington was the company that developed out of (or swallowed up) the old Whitman company.
Todd H.
http://www.smithworthington.com/saddles ... Police.htm
Pat[/quote[
Appears to be the descendant of the old Whitman officers saddle - I've seen this shape in a few saddletree catalogs from the 1970s/80s shown as the "Dragoon" pattern (purely marketing name, no military connection). It is essentially a beefed-up Whitman with odd high placement of stirrup loops to give look of typical flat saddle. Makes sense as Smith-Worthington was the company that developed out of (or swallowed up) the old Whitman company.
Todd H.
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Pat Holscher
- Society Member
- Posts: 7553
- Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
- Last Name: Holscher
Kind of neat to see a Whitman variant still in production. I wonder how many police forces still use it? I can't believe that it is very many.Originally posted by ToddAppears to be the descendant of the old Whitman officers saddle - I've seen this shape in a few saddletree catalogs from the 1970s/80s shown as the "Dragoon" pattern (purely marketing name, no military connection). It is essentially a beefed-up Whitman with odd high placement of stirrup loops to give look of typical flat saddle. Makes sense as Smith-Worthington was the company that developed out of (or swallowed up) the old Whitman company.
Todd H.
The Whitman is an interesting saddle, what with the way it hung on into the 20th Century Army as an officer's saddle, and then just sort of faded away.
Pat