Uniforms of the 1930s.

A place for discussion of mounted services uniforms, headgear, footwear and related personal equipment of the horse soldier.
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Post by Kelton Oliver » Mon Mar 11, 2002 7:49 pm

Ouch! The U.S. Public Health Service is a branch of Uniformed Service like the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, and Commissioned Corps of the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration (the 250 or so madmen who sail 40-foot cutters into hurricanes to gather information). I carry a regular active-duty ID card and am subject to assignment to the site of any killer virus in BFE as well as transfer to the Army, Navy, or Air Force at the whim of the president. All Coast Guard physicians and most of their other medical personnel are PHS officers, as is the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Medical Affairs (by law, he cannot be a DoD officer). We have sent teams to every major medical disaster anywhere in the world since WWII and flow smoothly into and out of assignments in the DoD as well as a host of non-military operations. Not exactly the Civil Air Patrol! But I know you meant no offense and will educate rather than chastise. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Kelton H. Oliver, M.D, Lieutenant Commander (Surgeon), U. S. Public Health Service

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Post by Pat Holscher » Mon Mar 11, 2002 8:07 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Ouch! The U.S. Public Health Service is a branch of Uniformed Service like the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard, and Commissioned Corps of the National Oceanic Atmospheric Administration (the 250 or so madmen who sail 40-foot cutters into hurricanes to gather information). I carry a regular active-duty ID card and am subject to assignment to the site of any killer virus in BFE as well as transfer to the Army, Navy, or Air Force at the whim of the president. All Coast Guard physicians and most of their other medical personnel are PHS officers, as is the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Medical Affairs (by law, he cannot be a DoD officer). We have sent teams to every major medical disaster anywhere in the world since WWII and flow smoothly into and out of assignments in the DoD as well as a host of non-military operations. Not exactly the Civil Air Patrol! But I know you meant no offense and will educate rather than chastise. <img src=icon_smile_blackeye.gif border=0 align=middle>

Kelton H. Oliver, M.D, Lieutenant Commander (Surgeon), U. S. Public Health Service


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Kelton,

My sincere apologies.

What I meant to say is that services such as yours deserve mention, and recollection. The PHS and the Coast Guard are often forgotten, and yet they do provide a valuable service, and their members have served in time of war often to the bitter end. A good example would be the invasion craft at Normandy, often piloted by Coast Guardsmen. I know a veteran here in town who has vivid recollections of the worst of Normandy, from the perspective of running troops into the shore on his craft. He was a Coast Guardsmen.

The CAP probably was a poor example. It is regarded as an auxillary of the US Air Force, but probably hasn't given combat service of any type since it was formed to spot submarines in WWII. Still, it did do valuable service then.

But your point is well taken, again, my apologies.

Perhaps some mention should be made here of reservists. We often think of them in the context of wartime service, but forget the valuable peacetime service they perform. Some units, indeed, do a lot of public protection activities, which tend to go unnoticed.

Pat

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Post by Pat Holscher » Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:44 pm

Bumped up by request.
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Post by Pat Holscher » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:45 pm

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Post by Dave J. » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:44 am

That's a great picture Pat.
Redhorse wrote:I don't have any information in regards to boot color for the 40s, but today black would be issue if not by regulation then by default due to the fact that the army specifies black for all footgear today.

The dress white uniform (very rare, I've only met one officer with a set) is of the same pattern and cut as the Class A's, but of course is white. I don't believe its pattern has changed much since 1938, either.

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Lt Wuensche's post here on this thread goes back to 2002. Fast forward to 2008, and I wonder what a pair of "rough-out" tan, desert three-strap boots would look like? :shock:

Think Dehner is up to that?

They may actually look good for hacking, but they wouldn't work with Class A's

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Post by Pat Holscher » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:18 pm


Following up on this, I have a stupid question related to these uniforms.

In some films depicting US troops in WWII (off hand, I can think of Battleground and Band of Brothers), U.S. troops going on leave are depicted wearing their Service uniform. That is, that uniform we later referred to as "Class As".

I realize these are film depictions, but did they do that?

I ask, as it strikes me as quite a pain for units to have to pack troops dress uniforms around. During WWI, this wouldn't have been a problem, as the Service uniforms was the same uniform the soldier wore for everything, but in WWII this was not the case. Did units actually transport these uniforms within the units for the soldier? If so, how was that managed? It seems like it would have been an unnecessary pain, but perhaps it wasn't regarded as such.
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Post by Dave J. » Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:38 pm

I would say that's accurate. The Service Uniforms, along with various other office supplies were kept with the HQ detachment of the unit. The men would be taken off the front line back to the HQ and be given leave from there.

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Post by Pat Holscher » Sat May 16, 2009 7:03 am

Bumped up due to related thread.
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Post by Pat Holscher » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:18 am

Odd example of how much the uniform practices have changed. We were discussing the wearing of ACUs by the Army Chief of Staff on the Patton thread, with some of us noting that informality seems to have gone too far. Here we see a U.S. officer, Maj. General Malin Craig (noted in the caption as being the Chief of Staff at the time of this photo, in 1938) discussing something with Cuban dictator Col. Fulgencio Batista. Gen. Craig is wearing wingtips:

Image

I doubt that wingtips were ever an approved item.
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Post by Trooper » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:35 am

Did Cuban uniform caps increase in size with rank?
If so is that a Colonel's or a Dictator's.
If a Colonel's, I wonder what a General's or Dictator's looked like! :lol:
Dušan

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Post by Pat Holscher » Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:40 am

Trooper wrote:Did Cuban uniform caps increase in size with rank?
If so is that a Colonel's or a Dictator's.
If a Colonel's, I wonder what a General's or Dictator's looked like! :lol:
Large enough to be mistaken for a solar eclipse.
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Post by Jim Bewley » Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:58 pm

Trooper wrote:Did Cuban uniform caps increase in size with rank?
If so is that a Colonel's or a Dictator's.
If a Colonel's, I wonder what a General's or Dictator's looked like! :lol:
I was thinking it looked Russian. Their hats always seem to be very high in the front giving a odd look to them.

Pat: The general is wearing wingtips and Batista has spurs.

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Post by mnhorse » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:16 pm

Wearing wingtips with the uniform does seem a bit odd. However, my understanding is that there was and is an approved uniform for General Officers, once you get that "star" you were at liberty to "design your own". Examples? How far do you want to go back?
Civil war.... take a look at Custer. Or how about Grant with stars on a privates blouse.
Indian Wars.... Crook in corduroy "hunting clothes" riding a mule.
WWII..... Patton on one extreme (like Custer), Joe Stillwell on the other. Campaign hat and an old sweater, no mark of rank.
Vietnam....... Westmoreland ...... Starched green fatigues that he changed 3 times a day or after a wrinkle appear.
We had one in USAEUR in '66-'67 (don't recall his name even if he was in my chain of command) rode in a private train or flew in a helicopter with red leather upholstery.
Who is going to say " Sir..... you are out of uniform"?
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Post by Pat Holscher » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:25 pm

mnhorse wrote:Wearing wingtips with the uniform does seem a bit odd. However, my understanding is that there was and is an approved uniform for General Officers, once you get that "star" you were at liberty to "design your own". Examples? How far do you want to go back?
Civil war.... take a look at Custer. Or how about Grant with stars on a privates blouse.
Indian Wars.... Crook in corduroy "hunting clothes" riding a mule.
WWII..... Patton on one extreme (like Custer), Joe Stillwell on the other. Campaign hat and an old sweater, no mark of rank.
Vietnam....... Westmoreland ...... Starched green fatigues that he changed 3 times a day or after a wrinkle appear.
We had one in USAEUR in '66-'67 (don't recall his name even if he was in my chain of command) rode in a private train or flew in a helicopter with red leather upholstery.
Who is going to say " Sir..... you are out of uniform"?
Richard
That's widely believed (you see it claimed all the time) but it is actually a myth in so far as modern times are concerned. Army uniform regulations include all officers, right up to the highest general officers. At least in modern times, the only slight exception to the rule is that Pershing was given some leeway in designing insignia for his rank as General of the Armies, but he didn't use it.

Anyhow, in actuality, there's no provision for departure for general officers, and they're included in the uniform regulations.

American generals, at least since 1900, have stuck pretty much to the regulations by and large, even though there'd be very few who could question any departure. Even Patton, who people popularly believe made up his own uniform, did not, and was darned near always within the regulations as they were then enforced. Of the WWII U.S. generals, only MacArthur really departed much, but in subtle ways. The egg salad on his cap was not regulation U.S. Army, and he tended to wear pleated khaki trousers, rather than chinos. Pretty subtle departures. What's often missed, however, is that there was more variety amongst officer uniforms in general than there was later. Jewelry items such as tie bars, etc., were common, when they were not later. Personally purchased boots and other leather items exhibited quite a bit of variety. But they were within a range of accepted variety.

Prior to 1900 there does seem to have been a lot of variety. But then, the further back you go the less uniformity of any type you really see. The 19th Century US Army in the field was not very uniform on many occasions, including enlisted men. A body of enlisted men mid 19th Century were often sporting their own hats, own shirts, and obsolete uniform items as they didn't want to wear out their good stuff. Later some units bought non standard uniforms. One unit of the 7th had leather pants and jackets made out of black and white cowhides.
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Post by Pat Holscher » Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:59 pm

Image

Image
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Post by mnhorse » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:08 pm

Pat Holscher wrote:Image

Image
The smaller the man the bigger the hat!?!
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Post by Jim Bewley » Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:14 pm

Looks simular to this one.

Jim
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