Modified M1940s

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Three strap cavalry boots

Post by Philip S » Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:27 pm

There has been some confusion about the different type three strap cavalry boots used at the eve of WWII. I have attached a picture of three different versions in the collection of the Cavalry Museum at Ft. Riley:

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The two left boots are officers pattern and the one on the right is the M1940 enlisted pattern. The officers pattern are higher, have a stiffer leather upper, and a different shoe last (like an English riding boot) The boot on the far left is the usual pattern with straps which hold the front flap tight by being drawn through an eyelet in the flat and then reattached at the buckle. The middle boot is an occasionally seen variant with the strap sewn to the fron flap and then attached to the buckle on the side of the boot.

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Post by Philip S » Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:34 pm

This is an interesting modification of the M1940 boot found in the collection of the U.S. Cavalry Association. The top has been extended to the height of an officer's boot. Note also that the middle strap was at the same time resewn to a higher middle position. I have drawn brackets around the saddle and stirrup area wear on the inside of the boot. You can see that it is directly over the original top of the M1940 boot. I found this especially interesting because I had to make a similar modification to my reproduction M1940 boots because the top would catch under the flap of my Stubben jumping saddle.
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Post by Philip S » Sat Aug 03, 2002 3:41 pm

This is an odd varient of the M1940 found on ebay. It has the officer's style strap and eyelets.

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Post by Pat Holscher » Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:21 pm

In an earlier thread here it was mentioned that Dehner was responsible for introducing the officer's pattern three buckle boot. Is that the case? If so, was the boot depicted on the left and center that pattern? I've seen at least one other three buckle boot in use by officers.

On the enlisted pattern, it is remarkable how close the boot is in design to the Jump Boot. Anybody know when the Jump Boot was adopted? Of course the Service Shoe is pretty darned similiar too.

In looking at this topic, and that of the 31 boot, I've noted that some actual 1931 pattern boots I've observed have the toe cap depicted here on the em three buckle boot, and the reproduction pair I have are like that. However, some National Archives photos from WWII I've observed show the 1931 boot with a much more pointed toe, and no toe cap. Apparently there was more than one variant of it as well.

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Post by Philip S » Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:39 pm

The current Dehner pattern three strap boot appears to be the same as that previously offered by the same company to cavalry officers.
Image

The origins of the officer's three strap boot are murky. It appears to have become popular in the late 1930's. I suspect an English origin since I have seen pictures of English officers wearing something similar and a large proportion of American officer's boots were imported from England.

Like the three strap boot, there was also an Enlisted and Officer's version of the full laced boot. Again, the officer's boot was generally taller and stiffer. Since they were a private purchase item there seem to have been an almost endless variety of details.

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Post by Philip S » Sat Aug 03, 2002 9:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Of course the Service Shoe is pretty darned similiar too.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Good observation. The 1931 and 1940 enlisted boots were basically extended versions of the Service Shoe.

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Post by Philip S » Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:46 pm

A page from an undated (1938-41) catalogue of Chicago Military Stores describing two different types of lace up boots. Interestingly, they do not offer the three strap boot.

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Post by Pat Holscher » Sun Aug 04, 2002 2:56 pm

Interesting advertisement. The English made lace up boots surprise me. I wouldn't have figured that style was made overseas, but it really should have occured to me. Thanks for posting that.

The Aviation boot is a curiousity. That must surely be a carry over from the early aviator practice of wearing field boots for some reason.

I thought I'd just note that occassionally there's questions here about where to get reproduction riding boots from this era. The service shoe type boot is actually still in production as a work boot, or at least it was up until fairly recently. I have had for a long time an excellent heavy duty pair which were sold by L. L. Bean. They were made by Chippewah, and even feature a toe cap. They're of a considerably heavier build than orignal service shoes. I haven't, and won't be, trying them out for riding, however.

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Post by Sam Cox » Sun Aug 04, 2002 3:35 pm

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Hey all these 3 photos are 124th cavalry
The 1st shot is interesting as the trooper in centre has had his issue 3 strap boots shortened.The photo is marked as CAMP ANZA,NISEI KAN TAGAMI and TROOPERS 124th CAV(HORSE).This shows an unusual combination of chino shirts,breeches with woolen service coat and the service cap.Interesting that the new to the cavalry Nisei is quite convincing in boots and breeches(hes even carrying gloves in his belt)
The 3rd photo is marked as TROOP F 124th CAVALRY(HORSE)
The second photo is marked as
G TROOP 124th CAVALRY MARFA TEXAS MARCH 44(this is a great photo but the quality is a bit fuzzy,note the standard bearers are wearing campaign hats at this late date with wool service coats while the rest of the troop are wearing M 41s with 56th cavalry brigade SSI)
Thanks to Pat for posting the pics

Edited by - Sam Cox on 08/06/2002 04:14:39

Edited by - Sam Cox on 08/06/2002 04:19:12

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Post by Pat Holscher » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:02 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The 1st shot is interesting as the trooper in centre has had his issue 3 strap boots shortened.The photo is marked as CAMP ANZA,NISEI KAN TAGAMI and TROOPERS 124th CAV(HORSE).This shows an unusual combination of chino shirts,breeches with woolen service coat and the service cap.Interesting that the new to the cavalry Nisei is quite convincing in boots and breeches(hes even carrying gloves in his belt)

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Sam, I'm a bit confused by this photo. I think of the term "Nisei" as meaning a Japanese American from that period, and I was under the impression that the Nise volunteer ended up, for the most part, in all Nisei units. The 442nd Regimental Combat Team comes to mind as the most famous example.

Where their Nisei troops in the 124th?

Pat

Paul Scholtz

Post by Paul Scholtz » Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The 1st shot is interesting as the trooper in centre has had his issue 3 strap boots shortened.The photo is marked as CAMP ANZA,NISEI KAN TAGAMI and TROOPERS 124th CAV(HORSE).

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Sam, I'm a bit confused by this photo. I think of the term "Nisei" as meaning a Japanese American from that period, and I was under the impression that the Nise volunteer ended up, for the most part, in all Nisei units. The 442nd Regimental Combat Team comes to mind as the most famous example.

Pat,

There were indeed a number of Nisei troopers attatched to the 124th Cavalry for the MARS expidition, as put forth in the famous book about the MARS Task Force in Burma. They proved invaluable when contact was made with the Japanese and prisoners were taken, althogh the author of MARSMEN said that hari-kira, ritualistic suicide rather than capture, was extremely popular with imperial Japanese troops.

Sam is much more well read on the 124th than I am,. and I look forward to his contribution. He may even have the names of the Nisei.

at your (mounted) service,

Where their Nisei troops in the 124th?

Pat
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

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Post by Sam Cox » Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:42 pm

Hey chaps
There was indeed Nisei attached to the 124th.The regimental translators joined the 124th at Camp Anza(south of LA).Anza was the last stateside stop before being deployed to India.Th following is from page 36 of MARSEMEN IN BURMA
A Nisei team of interpreters had joined the 124th at Camp Anza to come overseas with it.At camp Ramgargh it was formally attchd with to the regiment.It consisted of 15 nisei whoe were enlisted men and one officer,Lt W Swain from Los Angeles.Seven of the nisei were from Hawaii.The rest with the exception of one from Tacoma,Wash,were from California.They had all revieved special instruction in military terms,reading and writing at the Military Intelligence Service Japanese language school at Camp Savage ,Minn.
There is more on the Nisei in the book but i have to go to work and will edit this post this evening

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Post by Pat Holscher » Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:54 pm

An interesting selection of boots in the collection of the Cavalry Association.

<img src="http://mywebpage.netscape.com/PatHolscher/boots1.jpg" border=0>

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Post by Pat Holscher » Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:58 pm

What pattern of boot is this particular one?

<img src="http://mywebpage.netscape.com/PatHolsch ... edboot.jpg" border=0>

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Post by Pat Holscher » Sat Aug 24, 2002 10:41 am

Another look at a three strapped boot:

<img src="http://mywebpage.netscape.com/PatHolsch ... edboot.jpg" border=0>

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Post by Philip S » Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:07 am

Pat:
That is the matching boot to the center boot in the first picture. That design strap is a bit unusual for an officer's boot and is a bit difficult to tighten snuggly since the buckle is next to the flap. I wonder if the more common officer's boot with a strap going through an eyelet had a problem with the metal around the eyelet coming loose.

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Post by Pat Holscher » Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:26 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=1 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Pat:
That is the matching boot to the center boot in the first picture. That design strap is a bit unusual for an officer's boot and is a bit difficult to tighten snuggly since the buckle is next to the flap. I wonder if the more common officer's boot with a strap going through an eyelet had a problem with the metal around the eyelet coming loose.


<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

I have another photograph which is of the type of boot that has a strap which wraps around the boot. For the life of me I can't get my computer to not convert it to black and white, for reasons of which I'm unaware. I mention it as this type of boot seems to have been used by some WWI officers, and seems to have been the inspiration for the current unofficial "tankers" boot.

Pat

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Post by Uhlan1916 » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:22 pm

"Horse Country" - a company out of Virginia that deals mainly in hunt clothing & accessories offers a medium brown, three-buckle that resembles the current Dehner offering. I have not seen an actual specimen, only the ad, but it looks pretty good. It is advertised as being available in sizes 8-13 (including half sizes). Price of $550.00. I've listed their address below for anyone interested.

Horse Country
60 Alexandria Pike
Warrenton, VA 21086

Maybe someone in that locality could check them out at the Horse Country store and give a "quality rating."

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Post by Pat Holscher » Fri Sep 13, 2002 5:06 pm

The posting of the thread on the M1940 boot offered by WPG (even if offered only in the size which could be worn by an abhorrent freak of nature, size 8 and above, geez. . .) caused me to call this to mind.

Was there something that caused a switch to the new boot so late in the history of the cavalry? Ease of putting them on, or some other reason?

Pat

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Post by Sam Cox » Sat Sep 14, 2002 3:59 am

Hmm
The legging top boot was popular for a considerable period of time before the 40 model of boot.The 3 strap closure was used by British and French officers between the wars and the German army started issueing a legging topped boot between the wars(these can be spotted in early photos,there may also be a Cavalry specific variation).I would guess that it was convenience mainly but also would keep the weather out longer.The boot we call the 1940 model apears in photos as an EM item as early as 38 and the 1931 model was made up until 39 so there is a fair amount of overlap( a while back someone posted for me a photo of the 112th prior to embarkation wearing both models alongside each other).
I have 4 pairs of the 40 model boot and 3 variations.The main differance being in the buckles but the 45 dated pair has a full rubber sole with rubber heel,its more like the sole type you would find on a pair of 43 combat boots.

Sam Cox

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