Cavalry horse bandoleers

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HawkHero
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:31 pm

It certainly does look like an M1 scabbard. That same horse also doesn't have a curb bit, just the snaffle.



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Pat Holscher
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Thu Oct 04, 2007 8:40 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by HawkHero</i>
<br />It certainly does look like an M1 scabbard. That same horse also doesn't have a curb bit, just the snaffle.



Brian S Colonna
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I think the rifle with something wrapped around the action is an M1 in a M1938 scabbard too. So that means I'm unsure what is wrapped around the action. Did the Garand have an action cover that was sometimes issued?

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Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:25 am

I'm confused, which is hardly unusual. Garand vs carbine. Somewhere along the line, I got the idea that M1 and carbine went together and that Garand was simply Garand. Was the Garand also known as the M1 Garand?
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Harve Curry
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:32 am

That question I know, yes. M1 Garand and M1 carbine. It must of caused confusion then to.

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Bill Weddle
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:51 pm

Thanks much! I was seeing a Garand scabbard and thought people were refering to thr carbine.
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:13 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Harve Curry</i>
<br />That question I know, yes. M1 Garand and M1 carbine. It must of caused confusion then to.

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Bill Weddle
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About the time the M1 Rifle (Garand) was adopted, the U.S. changed its nomenclature system to start over serially. Prior to that, the year of adoption had designated the item. So, we have the M1903, and then the M1. Now we're up to the M16, of course, although there really isn't a fielded weapon between 1 and 16 for every single number. Offhand, I think only the M14 and M15 were actually fielded.

The "Garand" part of it I do not believe to be official. I'd invite correction on that. It's my belief that the official name of the Garand is "U.S. Rifle M1".

Each category of item might has an M1. The steel pot helmet, for example, is the M1 helmet. The first carbine adopted after the nomenclature change is the M1 Carbine. Off hand, without looking it up, I suspect the official nomenclature is something like "U.S. Carbine M1". It is confusing, I'll grant. But there's a whole host of other M1s as well.

To finish it out, we're up to the M4 carbine now, showing that there's been a lot more experimentation with rifles, as opposed to carbines, since WWII.

The use of Garand I think is sort of an unofficial honorific. John Garand was an employee of Springfield Armory, and I guess he was lucky enough to have a lot of people recognize his work in that fashion. It is unusual. Nobody calls the M1 Carbine the "Williams", even though "Carbine" Williams was the designer of it. Other rifles that have enjoyed similar unofficial nomenclature treatment are the various "Springfields", the M1917 "Enfield" and the "Krag". Other than the Garand rifle, the only other rifle I can think of off hand, which was an official rifle pattern, that was unofficially named after its designer was the Krag, although I could be mistaken. Certainly John Browning's name was attached to a variety of weapons that he designed, including the BAR.



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Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:33 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Harve Curry</i>
<br />That question I know, yes. M1 Garand and M1 carbine. It must of caused confusion then to.

yours,
Bill Weddle
Black Range Mnts.of New Mexico
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

About the time the M1 Rifle (Garand) was adopted, the U.S. changed its nomenclature system to start over serially. Prior to that, the year of adoption had designated the item. So, we have the M1903, and then the M1. Now we're up to the M16, of course, although there really isn't a fielded weapon between 1 and 16 for every single number. Offhand, I think only the M14 and M15 were actually fielded.

The "Garand" part of it I do not believe to be official. I'd invite correction on that. It's my belief that the official name of the Garand is "U.S. Rifle M1".

Each category of item might has an M1. The steel pot helmet, for example, is the M1 helmet. The first carbine adopted after the nomenclature change is the M1 Carbine. Off hand, without looking it up, I suspect the official nomenclature is something like "U.S. Carbine M1". It is confusing, I'll grant. But there's a whole host of other M1s as well.

To finish it out, we're up to the M4 carbine now, showing that there's been a lot more experimentation with rifles, as opposed to carbines, since WWII.

The use of Garand I think is sort of an unofficial honorific. John Garand was an employee of Springfield Armory, and I guess he was lucky enough to have a lot of people recognize his work in that fashion. It is unusual. Nobody calls the M1 Carbine the "Williams", even though "Carbine" Williams was the designer of it. Other rifles that have enjoyed similar unofficial nomenclature treatment are the various "Springfields", the M1917 "Enfield" and the "Krag". Other than the Garand rifle, the only other rifle I can think of off hand, which was an official rifle pattern, that was unofficially named after its designer was the Krag, although I could be mistaken. Certainly John Browning's name was attached to a variety of weapons that he designed, including the BAR.



Pat
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To add to this (and hopefully not detract from the rest of this very interesting thread), the M1 Garand and M1 Carbine (U.S. Rifle M1 and U.S. Carbine M1) give us an example of a real oddity in this time frame.

The US fought World War Two with four longarms. The M1903, M1903A3, and M1917, M1 Garand, and M1 Carbine were all used in the war. Of the four, only the M1917 was really a somewhat secondary rifle, in that it was only used by Chemical Mortarmen, Artillerymen, and, early on, Rangers. The M1917 may very well have been phased out of U.S. front line use during the war, although it continued to see some various use in the US, and was supplied to, and used by, the Free French and Chinese. The M1903 actually was used right to the end of the war as a front line weapon, although in an increasingly small proportion. It remained the rifle, however, of scout snipers and MPs up until the end of the war. MPs also used the M1903A3. In 1944 the M1903 was still the rifle of grenadiers in the squad. (By the way, those who watched the recent tv documentary The War may have caught the footage of an infantryman with a jammed M1903, who finally cycles the action and clears the jam).

That leaves only the M1 Garand and the M1 carbine.

The carbine was never intended to arm average infantrymen, and yet it became the most massed produced US weapon of all time. At least thats what the stats still say, although I have to wonder if the AR15 series of rifles might not soon exceed it. Be that as it may, enormous quantities of M1 carbines were made, which is all the more remarkable as it wasn't intended to be a real combat weapon. It was intended to replace the M1911 pistol, which it never did. As a practical matter, it came to be the longarm of most non front line US troops, and even came to be the arm of some frontline troops. It ended up seeing some serious frontline use in events like the Battle of the Buldge, as a lot of rear area troops or artillerymen were armed with it by that time.

As the war went on, more ended up in combat units. I'm not sure when they would have entered the cavalry TOE, but it would have been, I think, after the overwhelming majority of cavalrymen were no longer horsed. Indeed, it may have been the case that none of them were horsed at that time. It makes me wonder why we see the example of a trooper carrying an M1 carbine in the other thread, and makes that photo all the more of a myster.


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Harve Curry
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:01 pm

Pat,
All very well thought out. I believe you are correct with US Rifle M1 and US Carbine M1.
M1 Garand and M1 carbine isn't the official designation.

yours,
Bill Weddle
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:25 pm

In terms of further nomenclature oddities, it's odd to consider that every single numeral number to date in the carbines has actually been used. That is, there actually was a fielded M1, M2, M3, and M4 carbine. Of course, it's hard to understand why the M2 and M3 weren't simply additional "A" designations of the M1 carbine, given as they were really M1 carbines (the M2 being selective fire, and the M3 having infrared sighting).

Of course, I don't really understand why the XM177 remained an experimentally designated weapon, and the M4 is official. Numbers, I guess. Likewise, as the M4 and XM177 are carbine variants of the M16, you'd think they'd be a M16ASomething. Particularly as the M16 itself is practically a carbine in comparison to the M14, the standard rifle when the M16 first saw use.

And, in my commentary above, I'd forgotten there is an M21 rifle. It's the sniper variant of the M14. The sniper variant of the M1 Garand is the M1D, so there the military did not see fit to give the sniper variant of a rifle a whole new number. Now we have E variants of the M14 in the Navy, so there again, we seem to have some inconsistency. The Marines, for their part, adopted the Remington 700 as the M40 for sniping. The Army later adopted it as the M24.

Military nomenclature can be really odd.

Pat
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Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:35 pm

"Garand" is no more official than "Thompson," but we all know what we're referring to when we use the names.

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Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:38 pm

......oh, yeah......the Commonwealth cvaalry images I referred to were of troops on the march. I don't know if I'd be OK with the possibility of Dobbin running off with my ammo supply.

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Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:31 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bisley45</i>
<br />......oh, yeah......the Commonwealth cvaalry images I referred to were of troops on the march. I don't know if I'd be OK with the possibility of Dobbin running off with my ammo supply.

Bisley 45

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I've seen that in quite a few photos of WWI era Commonwealth mounted troops. I've assumed it must have been a standard British practice, but I don't know that. What is the story there?

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Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:59 am

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pat Holscher</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bisley45</i>
<br />......oh, yeah......the Commonwealth cvaalry images I referred to were of troops on the march. I don't know if I'd be OK with the possibility of Dobbin running off with my ammo supply.

Bisley 45

Don't sweat the petty things...and don't pet the sweaty things.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></font id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've seen that in quite a few photos of WWI era Commonwealth mounted troops. I've assumed it must have been a standard British practice, but I don't know that. What is the story there?

Pat
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'Full Marching Order' with the Canadian/British Cav bt WW I was a 90 round Bandolier on the man a 90 rd on the horse. Although in actuallity many of the photos show two on the horse.
I have one of the Cavalry moving up toward the front after the Vimy assault and the horses all have two Bandoliers on.
In the book 'Stand to your Horses' the author tells about leading a dismouted assault against German positions. He took the bandolier from one of the Troopers horses so that he wouldn't be identified as an Officer.
I've got a number of bandoliers. Some are 5 pocket IE: 50 rounds, some 10 IE:100 rounds and a couple of 9 pocket. The 9 pocket are the more scarce. They all have a tab on them to secure them to the man or the horse.
There are a number of generic photos of he NWMP with the Boar War Bandolier on the constable but none on the horses.
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Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:40 am

Mike: Were there bandoliers that were specifically designed for the horse or were they all troopers' bandoliers that were used on the horse? Larry
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Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:57 pm

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Larry Emrick</i>
<br />Mike: Were there bandoliers that were specifically designed for the horse or were they all troopers' bandoliers that were used on the horse? Larry
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Hey Larry, How ya been? Haven't talked for a while!!
I've pondered that myself. Remember those bandoliers have a certain 'cut'to them to fit across the shoulders properly. The 10 pocket are a bit perplexing. I don't think I've seen one of those on a horse. They are probably Militia, 'made in Canada' only. I have one marked ETMR. Can you quess that one?
Also the 5 and the 9 have different pocket flaps depending on whether they were made in Canada of the UK.
BTW: Did they have bandoliers on the horses in the Boer War?
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Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:20 am

Hi Mike: First things first: re ETMR, how about Eastern Townships
Mounted Rifles? For the benefit of fellow participants they were raised in the Eastern Townships of Quebec, which was an area of the mainly French-Canadian province that had a largely English population in the early 1900s. I have a particular interest in the ETMR because it was the related to the 5th Canadian Mounted Rifles and the 7th and 11th Hussars, which in the Second World War evolved into the 7/11 Hussars, the armoured unit with which my father served in Italy and North-West Europe. Now back to bandoliers, I can't remember ever seeing photos of bandoliers on horses' necks in the Boer war but who is to say it never happened. I also think those 10-pockets were distinctly Canadian, only because I have never seen photo evidence of them on anything other than Canadian troops. There was a lovely photo on ebay about a year ago of a boy bugler of the Strathconas wearing one. The one I have has the soldier's name and number on it and when I traced the name it turned out he was from Victoria, B.C., just 30 miles away, although I bought it from a dealer in the Eastern U.S. I have used it occasionally on parades on the horse's neck but that revealed a practical problem: whenever the horse drops his head, the bandolier slips down to his ears. I am beginning to believe that the bandoliers we see on horses' necks in photos were troopers' bandoliers rather than specifically for horses but perhaps John Ruf or John Morgan have documentary evidence to the contrary . Cheers, Larry
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Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:14 am

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Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:25 am

Below is an advertisement for ''Cavalry Combat'' on the inside front cover of ''The Cavalry Journal'' March-April 1940. I assume that the picture depicts British WWI cavalry with neck bondoliers.

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ConZ

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:34 am

Amazon has one used copy of that book available...for $120!

Darn...sounds interesting...

ConZ

"No Horses, No Cavalry, No Honor..."
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HawkHero
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Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:02 am

Wow, it sure did appreciate in the past 67 years...



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