Punitive Expedition Era Uniform Question

Locked
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

This question is admittedly ignorant, and I admit I'm very far from being an expert on uniforms of this ear.

These are links to photos of artillyermen that have recently appeared in other threads. In the photos of the men firing the guns, there are some that have very light colored pants. In the bottom photo of artillery spotters, some men have light colored uniforms, while others have dark colored uniforms.

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00489.JPG

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00491.JPG

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00492.JPG

http://runyon.lib.utexas.edu/r/RUN00000 ... N00463.JPG

I'm not any sort of an expert on uniforms of this period. At first blush a person would think that they were looking at mixed khaki and olive colored uniforms, but there was not a khaki field uniform of this era, correct?

What colors are we actually looking at here?

Pat
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

Bump

Pat
Ron Smith
Posts: 422
Joined: Fri Dec 01, 2000 12:18 am
Last Name: Smith

Pat,
There were Khaki uniforms issued and used. A few years ago ibought two pair of breeches with 1917 date stamps, one OD wool and one Khaki twill. I sold/traded the Khaki pair and I might stil have the OD pair.

More Khaki was worn by officers that I can tell but that is a non scientific deduction. Remember we found 27 shades of OD for that period. Add in exposure, dye base stability and general color variance and you have a potential for many color changes , especially in B&W film.

But Khaki was worn.

Regards,
Ron Smith
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ron Smith</i>
<br />Pat,
There were Khaki uniforms issued and used. A few years ago ibought two pair of breeches with 1917 date stamps, one OD wool and one Khaki twill. I sold/traded the Khaki pair and I might stil have the OD pair.

More Khaki was worn by officers that I can tell but that is a non scientific deduction. Remember we found 27 shades of OD for that period. Add in exposure, dye base stability and general color variance and you have a potential for many color changes , especially in B&W film.

But Khaki was worn.

Regards,
Ron Smith
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Ron, are those true khaki, ie., tan? I thought that color wasn't adopted until after WWI? Was this an unofficial use?

Pat
dallas Φ
Society Member
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:11 pm
Last Name: Freeborn

True Khaki was adopted for the SAW and the 1902 summer uniform was khaki. By 1909 the khaki had given way to an olive drab cotton. The WWI summer uniforms that I have had have been olive drab cotton, although a fairly light shade of olive. Probably with the fading, they could almost look khaki.
Dallas
dallas Φ
Society Member
Posts: 184
Joined: Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:11 pm
Last Name: Freeborn

In the photos, there are several styles of canvas leggings and at least one pair of the spiral strap M1912 puttees. Note that when the cannon is fired, the wheels have left the ground.
Dallas
Couvi
Society Member
Posts: 1236
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2001 9:30 am

Dallas,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dallas</i>
<br />Note that when the cannon is fired, the wheels have left the ground.
Dallas
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">An excellent example of the 2.95” Vickers-Maxim Short-Hard recoil system in action.

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dallas</i>
<br />True Khaki was adopted for the SAW and the 1902 summer uniform was khaki. By 1909 the khaki had given way to an olive drab cotton. The WWI summer uniforms that I have had have been olive drab cotton, although a fairly light shade of olive. Probably with the fading, they could almost look khaki.
Dallas
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks Dallas.

It's odd that the Army adopted a khaki (tan) uniform in the 1890 and again in 1902, and then abandoned it in 1909. The drab uniform does blend in well everywhere, and perhaps that was their thinking. Still, retaining the khaki uniform would have seemed like an obvious choice for hot summer duty.

Did the British always have a true khaki (tan) uniform in the 20th Century?

Pat
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Couvi</i>
<br />Dallas,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dallas</i>
<br />Note that when the cannon is fired, the wheels have left the ground.
Dallas
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">An excellent example of the 2.95” Vickers-Maxim Short-Hard recoil system in action.

Couvi

<i>"Cavalier san Cheval"</i>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

In one photo presently up we see Vickers Maxim machineguns. Here we see a Vickers cannon. How many Vickers products was the Army using?

Pat
aircorps_usa

Keep in mind that the M-1902 regs did allow a khaki summer uniform with a fold-down collar. These were cool and far more durable for the field than the wool Blues of that era. Many of these remained in the supply system prior to WWI. Also, during the post-SAW war era, both prior to and after the reg change in 1926 allowing flat lapels vs high necks, units in the hinterlands, especially the Phillipines, Cuba and PC Zone did a lot of their own uniforming locally. These included khaki 4-pocket tunics for EM's and NCO's and whites as regular uniforming for officers. The early ones tended to emulate the M-1902 version while the post WWI ones had the flat lapels later written into the M-1926 regs. Most are made of a cotton base, tight weave fabric similar to the later gaberdine. This was done for several reasons...one of course is that this type of material was cooler, both because of the lighter color and the thinner fabric, than reg wool uniforms and could be laundered easily, unlike wool. Tropical climates mean perspiration bigtime requiring almost daily uniform changes. The costs of such locally tailored uniforms was also very low what with native and locals doing the seamstressing. Prior to 1926 these were, to my knowledge, not worn stateside. Remember your Army regs...local commanders had the authority to make uniform changes as needed by climate or conditions or availability. After 1926, there are some regs that do indicate khaki specs for EM's and NCO's as well as officers in the field, as long as approved by the commander. Supposedly, they weren't to be approved unless ALL in the unit wore the same outfit but we all know that never happened. The farther out in the field, especially in "thrown-together" operations like the Punitive Exp., the more varience you tend to see. If you were on a horse in the southern New Mexico/Mexico deserts in summer, all day long, you too would be looking for clothing that was your friend or at least neutral, not the dreaded high-neck wool uniform that could lead to heat stroke! And whatever you wore, chances are the 1st Sgt had something similar so he wasn't going to give anyone below him a bad time either.
doug taggart
the Air Corps guy
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by aircorps_usa</i>
<br />Keep in mind that the M-1902 regs did allow a khaki summer uniform with a fold-down collar. These were cool and far more durable for the field than the wool Blues of that era. Many of these remained in the supply system prior to WWI. Also, during the post-SAW war era, both prior to and after the reg change in 1926 allowing flat lapels vs high necks, units in the hinterlands, especially the Phillipines, Cuba and PC Zone did a lot of their own uniforming locally. These included khaki 4-pocket tunics for EM's and NCO's and whites as regular uniforming for officers. The early ones tended to emulate the M-1902 version while the post WWI ones had the flat lapels later written into the M-1926 regs. Most are made of a cotton base, tight weave fabric similar to the later gaberdine. This was done for several reasons...one of course is that this type of material was cooler, both because of the lighter color and the thinner fabric, than reg wool uniforms and could be laundered easily, unlike wool. Tropical climates mean perspiration bigtime requiring almost daily uniform changes. The costs of such locally tailored uniforms was also very low what with native and locals doing the seamstressing. Prior to 1926 these were, to my knowledge, not worn stateside. Remember your Army regs...local commanders had the authority to make uniform changes as needed by climate or conditions or availability. After 1926, there are some regs that do indicate khaki specs for EM's and NCO's as well as officers in the field, as long as approved by the commander. Supposedly, they weren't to be approved unless ALL in the unit wore the same outfit but we all know that never happened. The farther out in the field, especially in "thrown-together" operations like the Punitive Exp., the more varience you tend to see. If you were on a horse in the southern New Mexico/Mexico deserts in summer, all day long, you too would be looking for clothing that was your friend or at least neutral, not the dreaded high-neck wool uniform that could lead to heat stroke! And whatever you wore, chances are the 1st Sgt had something similar so he wasn't going to give anyone below him a bad time either.
doug taggart
the Air Corps guy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But did the M1902 khaki uniform survive the 1909 changes, officially or unofficially?



Pat
Pat Holscher
Society Member
Posts: 7553
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2000 6:51 pm
Last Name: Holscher

Bumped up in light of the centenary of the commencement of the Punitive Expedition on March 9.
Locked