UP 1912..AUSTRALIAN MANUFACTURE.

[John M]

This is basically a standard UP 1912 saddle but which incorporates an additional pivot, at the front, above the normal pivot. This innovation is found on many Australian made UP 1912's and helps to prevent sagging of the seat. See the detail photo.

Markings...
On nearside numnha end cap.... arrow 40
On off side numnha end cap..... arrow 37

Off side sidebar stamped...."AUSTRALIA"
The metal back plate to near side sweat flap stamped...arrow K.

Horseshoe case stamped.... D..arrow..D....23 LH.
It's hanging strap stamped.... CGHF and arrow.
It's strap to girth stamped.... arrow over AS. H.COX. 1915.


PHOTOS WILL BE ADDED WHEN FURTHER ATTACHMENTS ALLOWED BY THE BOARD.

[John M]

The stirrups are regulation shape but have a very deep tread pattern.
T hey are stamped.... H.V.McKAY STEEL 1915

[John M]

[John M]

[John Tremelling]

Thanks John,

John T

[Fromelles]

Great pics John, one point, the verticle strap for the horseshoe case should be suspended from the rear 'Dee'

Dan

[John M]

Hi Dan,
Thanks for looking and comments. If you are correct I thank you....do you have any documentation to support the comment?
Shoecases for the Household cavalry are attached to the rear arch...a fixed loop is provided for this purpose.
I am certain shoecases for the regular cavalry using UP 1902 Pattern saddles are also attached to the rear arch...I will check LoC's etc....
Perhaps the shoecase is attached differently to the UP1912 saddle. I would obviously like to ensure I have it right,
John.M.

[Fromelles]

John,

I don't have anything 'official', but, just about every horseshoe case I've seen in photographs has it hanging from the rear 'dee', these comments apply only to Australian forces. I will admit I have seen cases hanging from the rear arch but as they were in Palestine I'm guessing that anything goes and you can put what you like where you like.

The case generally is of a slightly different pattern in that it doesn't have the frog or the horizontal steady strap but is the same size otherwise - Commonwealth Pattern ???. I'm not referring to the larger type of case that may have been used for larger horses (artillery etc. - unsure of the pattern/type).

The scanner is out of action for the time being but will post some pics when I can.

Dan

[Larry Emrick]

Hi John: Compliments of the season. Somehow I missed these photos when you first posted them. It is a fascinating saddle. I am trying to figure out how the skirts are attached, and what I am looking at in the last two photos. I see one screw but are also studs? And to what is the lacing attached? Cheers, Larry

[John M]

John,
I don't have anything 'official', but, just about every horseshoe case I've seen in photographs has it hanging from the rear 'dee', these comments apply only to Australian forces. I will admit I have seen cases hanging from the rear arch but as they were in Palestine I'm guessing that anything goes and you can put what you like where you like.
The case generally is of a slightly different pattern in that it doesn't have the frog or the horizontal steady strap but is the same size otherwise - Commonwealth Pattern ???. I'm not referring to the larger type of case that may have been used for larger horses (artillery etc. - unsure of the pattern/type).
The scanner is out of action for the time being but will post some pics when I can.
Dan

Dan,
Look forward to seeing any pics in due course. I have had a quick look at the LoCs. The only reference I found to the attaching of them to the saddle was in LoC 6261 in connection with the UP1890 saddle.
...."Strap, shoe-case, pattern 1884. It is 5 ins shorter than the former pattern (LoC 812) and is fitted with a back loop. The strap is passed round the hind arch of the saddle on the near side, except with the universal wood arch saddle".....
This arrangement of course continued for the UP1902 saddle. The dees on the rear caps of the numnha panels being for the rifle bucket straps, which passed thro these dees and round the rear arch of the saddle.

The 1915 dated shoe-case attached to this Australian UP1912 is marked up the 23LH, so I presume this regiment were issued with swords. It did'nt come with this saddle so could have originally bee used with a UP1902 saddle?.The length of the girth strap dictates that the hanging strap can only be attached to the rear saddle arch.
I can see it would be quite sensible to attach the type of shoe-case without frog to the nearside numnha dee.
John.M.

[John M]

Hi John: Compliments of the season. Somehow I missed these photos when you first posted them. It is a fascinating saddle. I am trying to figure out how the skirts are attached, and what I am looking at in the last two photos. I see one screw but are also studs? And to what is the lacing attached? Cheers, Larry

Hi Larry,
The skirts../..leg flaps are attached to the side boards by the studs. The dee at the front on each side no doubts helps keep them in place. The screw is probably a later addition to ensure the flaps do not come loose.
The lacing attaches the cross webbing to the leg flap on one side. The webbing is sewn to the other leg flap.
John.M.

[Fromelles]

John,

Here's one for starters ... J.Atkinson, 'A' Tp, 'C' Sqn, 8th LH Regt c.1914/15 ... I'll see what else I can find for you

J. Atkinson, A Tp, C Sqn, 8th LH.jpg (88.53 KiB) Viewed 4822 times

[BitsBridoon]

Hello John,

In regards to the additional pivotting apparatus I have had a canadian manufactured swivel tree with exactly the same additions. However I assume the additons where placed on when in Australian service and/or when the swivel apparatus wore so much that they required the additional pivots to take the slack out of the seat.

In fact one side of the stell where it was rivotted to the timber had torn which suggests the pressure exerted on the pivots gave way at some stage.

John out of interest, if you go to the Canadian yeomanry saddle topic I placed a reply to you in regards to the artillery drivers saddle I have. I would be interested in your comments,

kind regards

Gerard

[Fromelles]

John,

Here's another ... 359 AR Yeo, 'B' Sqn, 9th LHR - Christmas 1914

I'll keep looking

Dan

359 AR Yeo - 'B' Sqn, 9th LHR - 5.jpg (240.43 KiB) Viewed 4741 times

[Pat Holscher]

John,

Here's another ... 359 AR Yeo, 'B' Sqn, 9th LHR - Christmas 1914

I'll keep looking

Dan

359 AR Yeo - 'B' Sqn, 9th LHR - 5.jpg

Great photo!

What would we expect to be printed on that saddle blanket?

[John M]

Thanks for finding those excellent photos Dan. However I consider it unlikely that a horse shoe case, of the pattern with frog and sword, would be hung from this dee. It would not be practical. Still..would be interested to see any photos you might find.
I found a photo of Private Horace Flitcroft..10LH..on an internet site. Though not a close-up there is no doubt that his shoecase with frog and sword is hung from the saddle rear arch.
John.M.

[Fromelles]

Pat,
Though not clear, he has his regimental details marked on the blanket -

359 (above)
A.R. YEO (below)


John,
You could well be right, maybe the steady strap would make a difference to where the shoe case could be put. I've had a look through my books but haven't found a good shot of a case with frog and strap being used.
I'm unsure when Australia took on the pattern with the frog (obviously by the time swords started to be issued - c.1918), I've had my hands on plenty of cases with frog (some with quite early dates) but have never set eyes on the pattern in these, and other, photos. Practically all pictures of early war cases are of the frogless type.

But I'll keep looking.

Regards,

Dan

[John M]

Dan,
Note that the girth attachment strap on my Australian issue shoe-case with frog....described at the begining of this thread ...is dated 1915.
John.M.

[Pat Holscher]

Pat,
Though not clear, he has his regimental details marked on the blanket -

359 (above)
A.R. YEO (below)


Dan

Would we expect similiar markings on any British or Commonwealth saddle blanket of this period?

[Dpuckey]

On the first mounted pic the rider has a snaffle in with two reins onto the one ring, I have seen thsi in a couple of WW1 pics, why? Can it just be to conform with regulations on riding with 2 reins? I can see no practical advantage to it.

Anyone got any ideas?