British Enlisted Pocket Knife

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Joe Sweeney
Pat,

The Lanyard pattern for Clasp knives in 1901 was a renewal of previuos patterns dating into the past century. I believe there were actually 4 patterns sealed (I'll have to reverify)all differing in how they were knotted. In 1901 all patterns were to be of natural flax, unbleached. All colored lanyards were obsolete. No change in lanyard patterns through 1929.

A should have also added on the knives that other material besides the scales and bolster configurations changed. Iron was allowed in lieu of copper like the Shackle. Most wartime types being declared obsolete after the war and the pattern 6353 being reverted to as the pattern of issue.

I'm surprised by a lanyard for a knife. I wouldn't have guessed that at all.

Pat

[Greg Bradley]

Here is the common army kinfe found in New Zealand, some have lanyards. The picture shows one whick I purchased, it was stated that it was used by New Zealand Mounted Rifles however there is no proof of this other than it is a common army knife and no doubts were available to Mounted Troops, Army, and Navy personell. The leather thongs I have no idea what they are. Anyone may hazard at a guess?

Regards



G.I Bradley

[Joe Sweeney]

Pat,

All the photos of men wearing lanyards over their shoulder's have clasp knives tucked into their breast pockets. It was very much a mounted soldier's piece of kit until clasp knives became more universal in 14/15. I guess it makes sense from an ease of use perspective.

In most units standing Orders or specific uniform regulations there will be specific instructions.

An example is found in the ASC Training; it says all ASC Horse Transport personnel will wear the lanyard over the left shoulder and knife in the left beast pocket.

Greg,
I have no info on NZ knives. Are there two blades? The shape of the blade is very much reminescent of WWII Pocket knives.

Joe Sweeeny

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Joe Sweeney
Pat,

All the photos of men wearing lanyards over their shoulder's have clasp knives tucked into their breast pockets. It was very much a mounted soldier's piece of kit until clasp knives became more universal in 14/15. I guess it makes sense from an ease of use perspective.

In most units standing Orders or specific uniform regulations there will be specific instructions.

An example is found in the ASC Training; it says all ASC Horse Transport personnel will wear the lanyard over the left shoulder and knife in the left beast pocket.

Greg,
I have no info on NZ knives. Are there two blades? The shape of the blade is very much reminescent of WWII Pocket knives.

Joe Sweeeny

How interesting.

The use of a lanyard is always associated in my mind with sidearms, although whistles come to mind also. Carrying a knife in this fashion makes sense, it just had never occurred to me. Did all Commonwealth armies carry the knife with a lanyard?

Pat

[Joe Sweeney]

Pat,

Use of the word "All" was a bit too extreme but not by much.

Whistle lanyards were also worn by a limited number of personnel. The Whistle lanyard was worsted Khaki (LoC11896).

Also the Pistol lanyard could be worn again by a limited number of personnel and it too was worsted Khaki (LoC 3315 and 13058).

The lanyards seen worn on the shoulder (usually left shoulder) and that appear white were the Clasp Knife Lanyards.

Joe Sweeeny

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Joe Sweeney
Pat,

All the photos of men wearing lanyards over their shoulder's have clasp knives tucked into their breast pockets. It was very much a mounted soldier's piece of kit until clasp knives became more universal in 14/15. I guess it makes sense from an ease of use perspective.

Following up on that, so then was it the case that the clasp knife was only issued to mounted troops until WWI? And by extension, then, the knife lanyard was only issued to mounted men prior to WWI as well?

Sorry for all of these basic questions, but this is a piece of military equipment that was no doubt completely familiar to British troops, and those of various Commonwealth armies, but which is pretty much new to me.

Pat

[Joe Sweeney]

Pat,

From before 1905 to 1914 Clasp knives (w/Marline spike) with lanyards were general issue to just about every mounted soldier. Specifically this included the Household Cavalry, Cavalry of the Line, MMP, RHA, RFA, RGA, RE, ASC, AVC, RFC, and AOC.

Infantry received no Clasp Knife issue until late in 1914/early 1915 and after that date just about everyone was authorized.

Prior to the Boer War issue was even more restricted. In 1894 only RE personnel received the Knife with Marline spike. All other's authorized a clasp knife reveiced a knife without spike. Those Authorized included Mounted and Dismounted men of the Royal Artillery, Army Service Corps, and Royal Engineers. In addition men of the Ordnance Store Corps and only Cavalry Pioneers were issued knives.

Issue of lanyards started in (I Believe) 1898, but I will have to dig to verify.

After Lanyards were introduced all knives were issued with lanyards. These are most commonly seen as white or off white lanyards around the left shoulder with knife in left breast pocket, although this could vary according to the Corps.

After Clasp knives became more or less universal issue after 1914 the use of lanyards became a bit haphazard.

Joe Sweeeny

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Joe Sweeney
Pat,

From before 1905 to 1914 Clasp knives (w/Marline spike) with lanyards were general issue to just about every mounted soldier. Specifically this included the Household Cavalry, Cavalry of the Line, MMP, RHA, RFA, RGA, RE, ASC, AVC, RFC, and AOC.

Infantry received no Clasp Knife issue until late in 1914/early 1915 and after that date just about everyone was authorized.

Prior to the Boer War issue was even more restricted. In 1894 only RE personnel received the Knife with Marline spike. All other's authorized a clasp knife reveiced a knife without spike. Those Authorized included Mounted and Dismounted men of the Royal Artillery, Army Service Corps, and Royal Engineers. In addition men of the Ordnance Store Corps and only Cavalry Pioneers were issued knives.

Issue of lanyards started in (I Believe) 1898, but I will have to dig to verify.

After Lanyards were introduced all knives were issued with lanyards. These are most commonly seen as white or off white lanyards around the left shoulder with knife in left breast pocket, although this could vary according to the Corps.

After Clasp knives became more or less universal issue after 1914 the use of lanyards became a bit haphazard.

Joe Sweeeny

Thanks Joe.

Perhaps this clears up the question of whether a separate hoof pick, which has been debated here and there from time to time, came with a clasp knife at one time. It would appear that the Marlin spike always was part of the knife, but given as the knife was originally only issued to cavalrymen, no wonder some have viewed it that way.

It's intersting that this was such a useful design that its carried on. So here we have an example of an item for mounted troops continuing on as a general issue item long after mounted troops were no longer existant, absent certain ceremonial functions, in the British and Commonwealth armies.

Pat

[Joe Sweeney]

A little more on Lanyards. Lanyards of patterns familar in WWI date to 1898 as modified in 1901, but Lanyards for Clasp Knives were a special item of issue for active service abroad at least as far back as 1894. It was only issued for active service for all Corps. Prior to the Boer War there were also provisions to issue Clasp Knives w/lanyards for other types of troops such as Infantry only if going on Active Service. This provision seems to have been dropped after the Boer War but quickly renewed at the beginning of WWI.

Joe Sweeney

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by Joe Sweeney
A little more on Lanyards. Lanyards of patterns familar in WWI date to 1898 as modified in 1901, but Lanyards for Clasp Knives were a special item of issue for active service abroad at least as far back as 1894. It was only issued for active service for all Corps. Prior to the Boer War there were also provisions to issue Clasp Knives w/lanyards for other types of troops such as Infantry only if going on Active Service. This provision seems to have been dropped after the Boer War but quickly renewed at the beginning of WWI.

Joe Sweeney

Interesting.

The strong association with mounted troops is really a surprise to me. A pocket knife is useful for anyone, and I would not have thought it would have had a particular relevance for mounted troops over other troops, except on field service. I wonder what the rational was?

Pat

[John M Φ]

Pat....yes, I agree.
Hav'nt time at the moment to read back carefully over this thread, but it might be relevant to reread my first posting at the beginning.

Basically, as I see it, the REGULAR British cavalry used the folding hoofpick ..officially...up to 1905. They were then on instructed to use the clasp knife with its marlin spike. For cavalry, this spike was to be blunted for use as a hoofpick.
The clasp knife had already been in use for most Services for years and after circa 1905 would have been presumably a universal issue. But with blunted spike for mounted ...and other horse associated...use, and the sharp spike for all other services.
John.M.

John D Morgan

[Pat Holscher]

Originally posted by John M
Pat....yes, I agree.
Hav'nt time at the moment to read back carefully over this thread, but it might be relevant to reread my first posting at the beginning.

Basically, as I see it, the REGULAR British cavalry used the folding hoofpick ..officially...up to 1905. They were then on instructed to use the clasp knife with its marlin spike. For cavalry, this spike was to be blunted for use as a hoofpick.
The clasp knife had already been in use for most Services for years and after circa 1905 would have been presumably a universal issue. But with blunted spike for mounted ...and other horse associated...use, and the sharp spike for all other services.
John.M.

John D Morgan

Thanks John.

Pat

[David Hamilton]

Just for info:

Upper is my Dad's knife issued to him in the Navy, note the size, blade broken off. Lower is a standard, modern Australian Army issue with a pistol lanyard for illustration.

[David Hamilton]

BTW - What's left of the blade has "VENTURE H.M.SLATER SHEFFIELD" at the base, any ideas John?

[John M Φ]

David,
I regret I still have no idea what that stands for,
John.M.

John D Morgan

[Tom Ready]

VENTURE was the trade mark of Herbert Marriat Slater of 105 Arundel Street Sheffield from the name of his factory Venture Works at that address (or perhaps the works was named after the trademark?!) Prior to that, from 1868 at the latest it had been used by Slater Brothers a firm started in 1858 (some say 1853). The original firm went into liquidation in 1901 and reopened as H.M. Slater at the same address in the same year. The Family finally sold the business in the early 1990s and it may still be going, it was still in the phone book in 1997. Slater Brothers also used a beehive with

SLATER
BROTHERS
SHFFIELD

underneath it as a trademark, there is no idication when they changed to VENTURE and the two sources I have don't agree on all details...

Information from
The Sheffield Bowie & Pocket knife makers 1825-1925 by Richard Washer, T.A. Vinal 1974

and the excellent
British and Commenwealth Military Knives by Ron Flook, Ailife 1999

Tom

[Pat Holscher]

These are neat knives. I've bumped up this thread, as I've mentioned them in the Royal Scots Greys thread.

Pat

[lazyschnauzer]

Pat [and everybody] I'll add the clasp knife just sticking out of the left tunic pocket with a long, loose lanyard from the knife secured around the left shoulder epaulette. Cool idea![);]

All the best,
Dan

[David Webb Φ]

In WW2 Infantry carried the knife hanging from a loop around the belt. At least in some pictures.
The Artillery did and still maintain that the lanyard doubled as an emergency lanyard to fire their gun.
David

[Jonathan Paynter]

Hi all

It is my first post here...

Signals, Mounted Signals and Cable laying Cart Troops, wore a clasp knife on a leather loop with a snap hook, hung from the belt during the WW1 dating to pre war.

I have an example marked RE 2016 on the flat bone like grip on one side, the blade is marked MAPPING&WEBB SHEFFIELD W/I\D 9 with a M above
consisting of just a spike and blade.

Jonathan