very rare UP

[Larry Emrick]

Gentlemen:
I am posting this on the UP forum rather than the EBay forum because of the unusual nature of the saddle.
It is marked to the GGBG - The Governor General's Body Guard, a Toronto-area unit - and described as a WW1 Cavalry Saddle but no date is mentioned.
From the photos I believe it to be an 1890 model UP with a later numnah. The distinguishing features are the D-ring y-rigging to which the girth would have been attached, although this one has been badly treated, and the supporting strut just visible in the picture of the cantle, neither of which I believe were continued on the 1902 model.
I suspect the numnah is probably from a later Colonial pattern from the late 1800s-early 1900s onward, although it is possible the two are contemporary . One way to tell would be to take the numnah off and look for screw holes on the rear of the sidebars which would indicate the one-time presence of protective leather caps on the ends of the bars, another feature of the 1890.
The little buckle and loop on the pommel is also an interesting feature. My 1890 has stitching which indicates it once had the same feature, which is contiunued on the Colonial but not on any 1902s that I have seen.
All in all, a very interesting saddle that appears to be in good condition apart from the rough treatment the y-rigging has received. If the numnah is not original to the saddle its condition is immaterial to the integrity of the saddle. If it is original to the saddle then it is even more unusual.

Larry

[Larry Emrick]

Oops, should have identified the above in Ebay as: GGBG CANADIAN W.W. I CAVALRY SADDLE

[John M]

The saddle is a UP1890 and the D ring girth indicates it MKII. It still has the extended UP1890 extended points with their leather caps.

If I interpret Major Tylden correctly, the UP1890 would have been on issue in 1909. In 1910 the standing orders for the GGBG..were.."Saddles, Hussar pattern with white metal head and cantle etc...." Tylden then says.."this could be taken to mean that all ranks had the officer's Hussar pattern".

[Larry Emrick]

John: Do you think that could mean the numnah is original to the saddle?

[John M]

Larry, I looked at the ebay saddle yesterday. Looked again today for another look at the numnhas, but appears to have vanished.
Anyway, numnhas to the side bars were introduced in 1894. They had pockets at the front end to house the points. This pattern of numnha appear to have been use on all subsequent 1890 saddles until the points removed.
I reckon the numnhas to the ebay saddle could be a one-off perhaps made up by a civilian saddler after the saddle sold out of service....though based on the original numnha pannels?. Would be interesting to know if the ....rare?...1890 pannels are concealed within the present ones.

A brief run through the 1890 patterns re numnhas......

MKI..UP1890 saddle. LoC 6261..Jan 1901. Used numnhas MKIII or IV (pad type) and folded blanket. Leather caps screwed to rear end of side bars. Seat with longitudinal centre slot.

V-girths with D ring introduced in March 1892..LoC 6799.

MKII UP 1890.LoC 7032..Dec 1892...solid seat.Numnha and blanket still in use..though minor changes.

Pannels..MKI...LoC 7645...June 1894. Numnha pannels fitted to side bars and with pockets at front end for points. Side bar end caps removed and sent to store.

UP1890 MKIII saddle..LoC 9023..Jan 1898. Pattern sealed....minor detail changes.

UP 1890 saddle MKIII. LoC 9102. April 1898. The D ring v-girth arrangement changed to the pattern still in use today with the UP1902 saddle...though the girth protectors were straight sided.

( Note...in my experience ...the MKI saddles are rare. the only one I know of is in the NAM collection UK. The MKII is relatively common...have seen several for sale and have four MYSELF... the MKIII seems scarce...the only one I know of is in my possession. Would be interesting to hear of any others ).

[Larry Emrick]

Hi John: I tried for ages today to track down the seller without success. Let's hope it is re-listed. In the meantime, thanks for the list of changes.
Larry

[17thLancer]

Larry:

I believe that I may be able to assist with any questions you may have in regards to the Universal Pattern saddle from the GGBG, you are referring to from EBay on 05Feb12. I ended up purchasing the saddle to be used as part of a volunteer WWI educational programme which I assist with.

I am new to the Forum and initially was going to join to try and ascertain what I could about the cavalry of the Canadian Expeditionary Force saddle and was surprised to see your posts, related to the saddle.

I would be happy to assist you in any way with specific information about the saddle itself, though most of the saddle nomenclature is foreign to me.

I would like to know if there is any means of using stamped identification numbers from the saddle to date its use in the GGBG. Also, is there any value in repairing damage to the padding on the underside of the saddle or whether to just leave it as is?

Being new to the forum and new to the equestrian end of the military, I am open to any help which can be offered.

Cheers,

Ben

[Larry Emrick]

Hi Ben:
Congratulations on your purchase and for finding the MH Society website. It is a fantastic source of information about military horse matters and the information it contains expands on an almost daily basis.
Regarding your saddle there would be considerable interest in seeing more photos of it because they disappeared from ebay. Specifically it would be of interest to know if the padded underside of the saddle is original to the saddle. Photos of the method in which it is attached to the saddle might help and I am sure John Morgan , who added some comments to my original observations, will be able to help. I have never seen one similar although I do have an 1890 with the d-ring y-rigging and standard felt numnahs on the wooden sidebars.
As far as repairing it, until we know more about it I would not do anything with it beyond using some good saddle preservative on it .
We look forward to seeing more about the saddle.
Larry

[John M]

Yes, would be useful to see photos of saddle. Especially the numnhas which look like a later civilian bodge up?. I wonder if the original numnhas are still there enclosed by the later padding. If so, they should have pockets at the front.

[John M]

The numnhas introduced for the MKII 1890 UP should like this.

[Larry Emrick]

John, Ben: I tried putting the padded and quilted leather numnahs from my colonial on my 1890 today but the bars on the 1890 are about two inches two long, although the points of the front arch fit nicely in the pockets of the numnahs. .
I can't remember from the photos of Ben's saddle if they were attached with leather straps or some other method but those numnahs should be easily removed to reveal the bare sidebars and give us some more hints to their origins.
It will be interesting to see photos of your saddle Ben to determine if the numnahs were made for the saddle or if there was a modification .
The colonials won't fit the 02 because there are no points on the front arch to fit into the pockets.
Larry

[John M]

Larry,
To avoid any misunderstanding the correct numnhas for the UP1890 MKII are of felt with the leather pockets for the points sewn on.
The correct numnhas are not of the colonial type or pattern,
John.

[hbtoday98]

John the harness page in the posting above I have a saddle like that I was lead to beleave that it was for breastplate harness and that shows it strapped up into a collar are they the same .
I think it would make the collar that was used sit better on the neck .I find the ones I have fitted roll.Where would I get a readable copy of this manual?as down here in NZ that information is long gone .I have a 1926 manual of horsemastership,equitation and driving .I am building a set of breast harness 2014 and most of the ww1 sets are in compete with yoke straps and hardware, hip straps missing.I will put up a picture of the saddle .
The rare UP would be nice to see here too .
Thank you John for sharing your information
regards mal