"1805" British light dragoon saddle.

unclearthur
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John M wrote:You are of course right, Uncle Arthur. I had made a careless observation. When mounted, the stirrup leather would half twist to place the loops and buckle in front of and away from the rider's boot with the smooth side of the leather against the riders boot.
When I first put a set on, I automatically fitted them with the buckle outwards - modern habits die hard!

There's a story about Brigadier General John Slade, ordered by Lord Paget to clear French dragoons from a Spanish village (Mayorga, I think). Slade led the 10th Hussars forward but stopped to fiddle with his stirrups. After a delay, he led them on again, only to stop a second time to adjust them again. Paget was so exasperated at the delay he ordered one of his aides to take over command of the 10th and lead the sortie.

I guess you can see why it might have taken Slade quite some time to get the adjustment just right.


I was intrigued by the introduction date for the hussar saddle. Haythornthwaite actually says 'designed in 1805' but then goes on to say ' the use of this saddle was extended to ALL light cavalry in 1812' (British Cavalryman 1792-1815 - Osprey). So - hussar regiments first, then. Mollo says re-equipping took 18 months with the 7th Hussars ready first, in September 1806, and the 10th and 15th by the middle of the following year (The Prince's Dolls).

Unfortunately, Gordon and Griffith (15th Hussars), Thomkinson and Luard (16th Light Dragoons), Brotherton (14th Light Dragoons) and Robert Ballard Long (16th LD transferred to 15th Hussars) all fail to mention anything about saddles in the diaries and letters of theirs I've come across. Edward Charles Cocks (16th LD) wrote to his brother in December 1810 asking '...would you order me a new hussar saddle with accoutrements complete, from Whippy' (Intelligence Officer in the Peninsula), so were planned changes common knowledge that early (and with a saddle having a service life of 16 years, although officers purchased their own so might be expected to renew them more frequently) or had the process of re-equipping Light Dragoon regiments already begun?

Then Cocks spoils it by adding 'I wish the pads for the valises to be made very large and fixed to the saddle', thus ordering new a piece of 17th/18th century equipment apparently then obsolete (though Mike Chappell's British Cavalry Equipments 1800-1941 shows a 1778 drawing of a proposed new 'Light Horse Saddle', designed by Sir Wiliam Erskine, with such a pad).

Carl Franklin, in his otherwise (apparently) excellent British Napoleonic Uniforms seems to have gone with Tylden's 'no-spoon pommel'. He obviously couldn't find any new information after trawling through regimental archives. Or maybe he treated saddlery as being of secondary importance.

Confused? I am. Perhaps we'll never know. I'm sure if more private dragoons had kept diaries we'd have far better information to work with.

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John M Φ
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Thanks for that interesting and informative posting. Gives me more to think about.
I have a fair knowledge of British cavalry saddles from 1856 to the present, with examples of most patterns...but am trying to find out more about the pre 1856 saddles.
unclearthur
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John M wrote:Thanks for that interesting and informative posting. Gives me more to think about.
I have a fair knowledge of British cavalry saddles from 1856 to the present, with examples of most patterns...but am trying to find out more about the pre 1856 saddles.
I'm afraid it wasn't much practical use, though!

I read as much Napoleonic period cavalry stuff as I can, so if anything new pops up I'll post it.

Jonathan
John Ruf
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Uncle Arthur:

Well, on closer inspection I also see clearly that the leathers are placed correctly. I am also not too fond of a buckle against the shin!
ReversiblePortsmouth
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Hello John M and John Ruf,

I was at the Musee de L'Armee last week. I took several hundred pictures of saddlery, artillery, wagons etc. Magnficient. The Austrian/Hungarin army museum is also worth a visit, as well as the Vatican where is some military saddlery on display there as well. The problem though with photos is that most saddlery is behind glass and although pictures are allowed (but with no flashes), the glass does reflect and often obscures the quality of the photo.

I note the folded end of the stirrup leather. I have noted this as well. Interestingly this was a habit of Australian Stockman. I've witnessed this arrangement on WW1 photographs, no doubt adopted in the field.

I noted John that you mentioned the captive keeper to maintain the leather in place and sabre protection to the shins.

Stockman and Ringers used this same method with stirrup leathers, but without the keeper. The reason for this was that many stock horses were a bit rough around the edges. Getting on them required some skill and so usually they got on them in the yards and someone opened the gate for them. This was because mounting and dismounting could be hazardous. Losing a horse might mean a long walk home and perhaps a busted saddle and bridle. (Incidentally this problem has led to a unique method of mounting that stockman developed to counteract horses that darted away when climbing aboard).

Once on your rough horse the plan was to stay there until you got off to let the animal go. Forget about toilet breaks. One always pulled the stirrup irons up a hole or two to counteract that sudden buck and not get turfed off in the middle of nowhere...plus you had more chance of staying onboard. However Australian Ringers liked to ride "long in the irons" to ease the legs on long days mustering. So if the legs got tired and you needed the length again, it was a simple task to lengthen the stirrup leathers without having to get off.

Gerard
unclearthur
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ReversiblePortsmouth wrote:Hello John M and John Ruf,

I was at the Musee de L'Armee last week. I took several hundred pictures of saddlery, artillery, wagons etc. Magnficient. The Austrian/Hungarin army museum is also worth a visit, as well as the Vatican where is some military saddlery on display there as well. The problem though with photos is that most saddlery is behind glass and although pictures are allowed (but with no flashes), the glass does reflect and often obscures the quality of the photo.

I note the folded end of the stirrup leather. I have noted this as well. Interestingly this was a habit of Australian Stockman. I've witnessed this arrangement on WW1 photographs, no doubt adopted in the field.

I noted John that you mentioned the captive keeper to maintain the leather in place and sabre protection to the shins.

Stockman and Ringers used this same method with stirrup leathers, but without the keeper. The reason for this was that many stock horses were a bit rough around the edges. Getting on them required some skill and so usually they got on them in the yards and someone opened the gate for them. This was because mounting and dismounting could be hazardous. Losing a horse might mean a long walk home and perhaps a busted saddle and bridle. (Incidentally this problem has led to a unique method of mounting that stockman developed to counteract horses that darted away when climbing aboard).

Once on your rough horse the plan was to stay there until you got off to let the animal go. Forget about toilet breaks. One always pulled the stirrup irons up a hole or two to counteract that sudden buck and not get turfed off in the middle of nowhere...plus you had more chance of staying onboard. However Australian Ringers liked to ride "long in the irons" to ease the legs on long days mustering. So if the legs got tired and you needed the length again, it was a simple task to lengthen the stirrup leathers without having to get off.

Gerard

The Australian connection is really interesting. The first serious colonisation by the British (through the so-called 'First Fleet' of 1787-88) included a large number of convicts and military personnel, as well as civilians. It seems to make sense that a military style of riding, comfortable over long distances, would remain popular, perhaps retaining many particular conventions - such as the stirrup buckle positioning.

I'm sure military rough-riders of the period would have left the tab of their leathers hanging loose for exactly the same reasons as more modern stockmen.

Australian Stock saddles are still fitted over a blanket and with a surcingle/overgirth, just like their military forebears. And I gather it's pretty common for stock horses to work in both breastplate and crupper.

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ReversiblePortsmouth
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The days of the surcingle or over girth you mentioned are almost totally gone and perhaps left in secluded pockets wher people might still use a very old styled stock saddle. The most common saddle ringers, stockman and campdrafters use are the new aussie style saddle with swinging fenders. Beastplates and cruppers are mostly a thing of the past...again in rare pockets of those who still use the old saddles.

With the new swinging fenders the loop on the stirrup leathers are pretty much gone as well. see "www.kentsaddlery.com.au" for further information on the new styles.

cheers

Gerard
unclearthur
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ReversiblePortsmouth wrote:The days of the surcingle or over girth you mentioned are almost totally gone and perhaps left in secluded pockets wher people might still use a very old styled stock saddle. The most common saddle ringers, stockman and campdrafters use are the new aussie style saddle with swinging fenders. Beastplates and cruppers are mostly a thing of the past...again in rare pockets of those who still use the old saddles.

With the new swinging fenders the loop on the stirrup leathers are pretty much gone as well. see "www.kentsaddlery.com.au" for further information on the new styles.

cheers

Gerard
Thanks for the info, Gerard. I've never had much to do with stock saddles so those I have seen are probably older models or even what non-Australians or manufacturers still consider to be a 'stock saddle.'
I was interested in the 'surcingle with breastplate/crupper' angle because in practice girthing up a saddle with surcingle fitted whilst on board is difficult, suggesting saddles rigged in this way were expected to be ridden in with a less-than-tight girth and allowing some saddle movement. The only modern interpretation of this idea I've come across is in the Free 'n Easy range of endurance saddles made by Les Spark. These have a vaguely military feel, with two padded 'sideboards' and the saddle tree fitted above these (attached by the tree points in front and two adjustable height pins at the cantle). At first it was recommended the saddles were loose-girthed and used with both breastplate and crupper, but that advice seems to have gone by the board recently.

BW, Jonathan
ReversiblePortsmouth
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Thanks Jonathan,

I looked at your website and it looks pretty good. Are you in the UK or US? I note there's a chap making UP's, bridles and head collars and other accoutrements and there's a chap making UP's in NZ.

cheers

Gerard
ReversiblePortsmouth
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Sorry Jonathan,

Correction: I meant there is a chap in the UK as well as NZ making UP's,

Gerard
unclearthur
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ReversiblePortsmouth wrote:Thanks Jonathan,

I looked at your website and it looks pretty good. Are you in the UK or US? I note there's a chap making UP's, bridles and head collars and other accoutrements and there's a chap making UP's in NZ.

cheers

Gerard
I'm in South Wales. There's a company making new 1912 UPs advertising on Ebay at a sensible price and also a guy making (at least I think he makes them) 1805 hussar saddle repros - with spoon front arch(!) - at http://www.solent-saddlery.com if anyone's interested.

Thanks for checking out my site.

Jonathan

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John M Φ
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John M wrote:The following information acknowledges useful comments made by Paul Dawson and Rob Wolters...members of the Napoleonic Series site.

Paul Dawson...
"The 1796 saddle was a universal saddle for both light and heavy cavalry. Haythornwaite is at error. The Hungarian saddle was not officially adopted till 1812 and then only for regiments on Home Service. The Board of General Officers paper in Kew makes this very clear".

Rob Wolters....
Mentions that, in 1814 a few thousand of these Hungarian saddles were sent to Holland and used by a number of regiments.
He says that in the Dutch archives there are contracts, price lists and discussions that reveal a number of details.....as follows...

The front and rear arches were a 2 piece construction with dovetail connection.

Unlike the French version, the arches of the British ones were not reinforced with iron.

Common for this type of saddle is a leather seat, nailed to front and rear arch and tied to the sideboards with a leather thong.

Typically British were knee flaps held by the thong that tied the seat to the sideboards.

The girth was woven with hemp and had...at least on the near side....2 buckles. An article in the cavalry journal adds that the other end was reinforced with leather and tied to the sideboard with a leather thong. On the near side would be a another piece of leather with 2 straps.

The breastplate has a long and a short shoulder strap, that buckle together, the long end was looped around the front spoon. The connection point of the 3 strap is covered by a heart shaped piece of leather.

The crupper consisted of the straps , crossing each other, with a rosette and boss at the cross point.

The holsters were looped to the front spoon, the lower ends held by rings on the breastplate.

The centre cloak strap was a buckled strap, the outer ones were thongs, probably attached to the holster rings as the French version.

According to a drawing in said cavalry journal. the sideboards had fantails at the back like the 1856 pattern. On these fantails were buckled straps for the crupper.

There were also iron staples, for the valise strap, either on the fantails or on the rear arch.
..................................................................................................................................................


I notice there have been further comments elsewhere on the "1805" saddle in the Royal Armouries...especially in relation to the front spoon...or lack of.
The documents in the Dutch archives are I feel very important. Wish I could have a sight of them. The few thousand saddles referred to are obviously the early British Hussar saddles and have spoons to the front arch.
unclearthur
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John M wrote:I notice there have been further comments elsewhere on the "1805" saddle in the Royal Armouries...especially in relation to the front spoon...or lack of.The documents in the Dutch archives are I feel very important. Wish I could have a sight of them. The few thousand saddles referred to are obviously the early British Hussar saddles and have spoons to the front arch.
Certainly sounds like it. But the issue maybe more complicated than I thought - I recently came across a French anecdote bemoaning a lack of steel arch supports which caused their saddle arches to fail, made worse by the sloppy riding of new conscripts. This was in 1813, when, thanks to his disasters in Russia, Napoleon was short of men and horses, never mind all their equipment. So it may be that procurers weren't so fussy about specification when desperate. What I'm getting at is the Dutch imports may be their own spec, British spec or even 'not quite British' spec. Any saddle makers holding stock must have been pretty keen to clear it once Napoleon abdicated, realising the volume of regimental purchases would nose-dive.

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Anulf
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The drawings and the talk of the Hungarian Cavalry saddle made me think of this Youtube video. It is a civilian event somewhere in Hungary but look at the saddle the first guy is putting on his horse and the second fellow as well. Not the third. There is some riders in Hussar gear later on but I can't really see the saddles. This is mostly for the first guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB1RDAnp ... ture=share
John M Φ
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Good point unclearthur and interesting saddle, Jack.

John.
unclearthur
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John M wrote:Good point unclearthur and interesting saddle, Jack.

John.
I noticed that first saddle's sideboards were 'felted' like a UP, so who knows what lay underneath the leather covering. But the very fact suggests it's fairly modern. I wonder if they're still making traditional wood-frame Hungarian hussar saddles, somewhere in the depths of Eastern Europe?

Merry Christmas, all.

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John M Φ
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This saddle frame came "from the depths of Europe" some years ago. Acquired it at a car boot fair, probably came from Romania or Hungary. Doubt whether it's military. Assembled with wood dowels. No sign of fixing points for girth or stirrup leathers.
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Anulf
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The saddle in the video reminded me of John Rufs earlier post on this thread with the plates of the Prussian Artillery Saddle of 1842. If the Prusian saddle was based on a Hungarian Hussar or Military saddle of some kind, they seem to be still making a model of it. I'm not sure if this modern version has the seat suspended in the same way but I'm assuming the spoons are to "hang" the leather seat cover.

I own a video of an Australian traveling through eastern Europe. He shows a saddle frame from a historian in Kalmykia as well as one from a country museum in the Hutsul area of the Carpathian Mountains in the Ukraine very much like the "Prussian" saddle with definate spoons. The old saddle form "the depths of Europe" in the previous post shows similarities but I don't see holes for the laces to suspend the seat either.

The point the Australian was trying to make was that the Kalmykians who are Oirats, Western Mongols, brought this saddle or style of saddle when they came with the invading Mongol armies. The Hutsuls also claim that the saddle in the museum, (as well as the local breed of horse) came with the Mongols as well.

I guess my point is that the saddle or the type known as the Hungarian Military saddle can legitimately trace its roots back to the military saddle of the Eurasian Steppe. If the Up and the Mclellan and I suppose most "modern" cavalry saddles claim the Hungarian as their sourse, then they too have an eastern and ancient liniage. :)

The guy in the Hungarian video is like an American who prefers to ride in his '04 and it is kind of nice to see that they're still around.
unclearthur
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Anulf wrote:The saddle in the video reminded me of John Rufs earlier post on this thread with the plates of the Prussian Artillery Saddle of 1842. If the Prusian saddle was based on a Hungarian Hussar or Military saddle of some kind, they seem to be still making a model of it. I'm not sure if this modern version has the seat suspended in the same way but I'm assuming the spoons are to "hang" the leather seat cover.

I own a video of an Australian traveling through eastern Europe. He shows a saddle frame from a historian in Kalmykia as well as one from a country museum in the Hutsul area of the Carpathian Mountains in the Ukraine very much like the "Prussian" saddle with definate spoons. The old saddle form "the depths of Europe" in the previous post shows similarities but I don't see holes for the laces to suspend the seat either.

The point the Australian was trying to make was that the Kalmykians who are Oirats, Western Mongols, brought this saddle or style of saddle when they came with the invading Mongol armies. The Hutsuls also claim that the saddle in the museum, (as well as the local breed of horse) came with the Mongols as well.

I guess my point is that the saddle or the type known as the Hungarian Military saddle can legitimately trace its roots back to the military saddle of the Eurasian Steppe. If the Up and the Mclellan and I suppose most "modern" cavalry saddles claim the Hungarian as their sourse, then they too have an eastern and ancient liniage. :)

The guy in the Hungarian video is like an American who prefers to ride in his '04 and it is kind of nice to see that they're still around.
I think it's the idea of a 'suspended seat' which is common to the UP but not the McClellan (forgive me if I err - US saddlery is not one of my strong points).
I guess we'd have to go back to the point where some bright spark thought to string a piece of leather across the two arches rather than plonk a cushion between them to find out, which is likely a problem. I agree with your lineage view, as east is where the earliest improvements in saddlery (high pommels/cantles, stirrups, horse armour) seem to have originated.

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unclearthur
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John M wrote:This saddle frame came "from the depths of Europe" some years ago. Acquired it at a car boot fair, probably came from Romania or Hungary. Doubt whether it's military. Assembled with wood dowels. No sign of fixing points for girth or stirrup leathers.
I love the look of this - as if someone out in the sticks, and fed up of riding bareback, remembered once seeing an old hussar saddle and thought 'I can make one of those'!

Merry Christmas!

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